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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64270 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #425 on: April 08, 2023, 06:38:03 AM »
Blind or deaf to facts and reason because of bias and overpowering inclination. An allusion to the discussions about the "justice" in store for Trump in Manhattan if his case goes to trial.

You're basically projecting.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #426 on: April 08, 2023, 06:39:14 AM »
You bad-willed imbecile, that IS reason.  Your restating of your opinion is not an argument, and not one of you have rationally refuted the points made.

And you keep citing the Catechism of Trent as evidence for interpreting this particular passage in Trent.  You have absolutely no sense about logic and logical arugments.

One of your more colorful echos. :laugh1:

I didn't restate "opinion." I referred to past Magisterial statements that highlight what the Catechism is referring to, one which predates it by over a century, and another centuries later. 



Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #427 on: April 08, 2023, 06:47:44 AM »
You bad-willed imbecile, that IS reason.  Your restating of your opinion is not an argument, and not one of you have rationally refuted the points made.

And you keep citing the Catechism of Trent as evidence for interpreting this particular passage in Trent.  You have absolutely no sense about logic and logical arugments.  Now you take it to the next step by citing something from Pius XII as if it were remotely related to interpreting Trent.

Answer is right in the next, but neither one of you bad-willed clowns can refute the argument, or have even tried.  Instead, you attempt to cite other sources that are completely irrelevant.

:laugh2:

I can point to probably a dozen or more examples where I presented an argument to you that you couldn't answer, and just walked away to listen to yourself mumbling in your chamber. 

As to your "possible to be initially justified but not regenerated or reborn in Christ" argument, here's Trent:

Quote
Session VI, Chapter III.
 

Who are justified through Christ.

But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His [Page 32] death, but
those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if
they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing
that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as
their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing
that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the
grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to
give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints
in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the
Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.

I'd say that's a source that's relevant, wouldn't you?


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #428 on: April 08, 2023, 07:11:42 AM »
Because those of bad will here have attempted to distract from the argument by constantly throwing chaff at it, I'll restate it here.

Trent teaches that justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum.

Taken entirely by itself, it can be read two ways, that either one suffices or that both are necessary.

But Trent's citation of Our Lord's teaching immediately disambiguates the passage.

Responses from the BoDers are to throw chaff out there.  But, muh Roman Catechism.  But, muh Pius XII.  There's no evidence that either one of these is referring to this passage from Trent.  But, personal insults from Decem, with colorful talk of "echo chambers" and "Manhattan juries" ... i.e. ad hominen distractions.

Justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum.

"I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  Either one suffices.  BoDer reading.
"Wedding cannot take place without the bride or the groom."  Both are necessary.  Non-BoDer reading.

Let's say I don't know anything about baseball, and someone says:
"We can't play baseball without a bat or a ball."

I would not know by itself which is meant, but then if someone said:
"We can't play baseball without a bat or a ball, since Bob told us we need a bat and a ball to play baseball."

Immediately disambiguated, and only a fool or a dishonest individual would claim that the part, "We can't play baseball without a bat or a ball." means that we can play if we have one or the other (and not both) ... completely ignoring Bob's statement, by virtual "ellipses" as it were.  Just like Angelus used actual ellipses, the BoDers apply the intellectual ellipses of filtering out the disambiguation using confirmation bias.

Returning to Trent:

Justification cannot happen without the laver or the votum, since Our Lord taught that water AND the Holy Spirit are necessary.

From this passage, Trent immediately goes on to spend several paragraphs explaining how the Holy Spirit inspires the dispositions necessary for justification.  As even Catholic Encyclopedia admits, the translation of votum as "desire" is woefully inadequate (and it's dishonest), since it refers to all the dispositions necessary to receive the Sacrament.

This is the very next paragraph after the passage that's always taken out of context by the BoDers:
Quote
It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.

Not only does this refer to the Holy Ghost illuminating the soul toward the process of justification, it explains the intent of what Trent was attempting to teach here, that this process of justification begins with the cooperation of grace with free will (the term votum is linguistically related to the word "to will") moved by the Holy Ghost.

Trent is clearly not teaching here about the alleged "Three Baptisms".  Otherwise you'd expect mention of good old BoB.  No, Trent is teaching about how both the ex opere operato grace of the Sacrament AND the cooperation of the will (votum) are required in the process of justification, with the BEGINNING of the process starting with cooperation of the will with the illumination of the Holy Ghost, and then later saying that justification ITSELF happens, with the Sacrament of Baptism serving as the instrumental cause.

That is ANOTHER argument against the BoDer interpretation.  Also ignored here and being countered by irrelevant chaff.  Logical corollary of the BoDer reading is that justification CAN happen WITHOUT the Sacrament, but as Trent teaches later, this would be heretical, as Trent says that the Sacrament of Baptism is the instrumental cause of "justification itself", distinguished here from the "beginning of ... justification".  So to say that justficiation can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament would be to claim that Trent is contradicting ITS OWN TEACHING.

Finally, if this should be read the BoDer way, then the are no "Three Baptisms".  That would be heretical.  Trent clearly says that justification can't happen without the laver or the votum.  So, to claim, then, as many have tried, that there's a separate BoB that's distinct from and does not reduce to these two, or as St. Alphonsus said, acting "quasi- ex opere operato" would be heretical.  So this whole idea that infants could be saved by BoB (just like that awful example from BoDers of the Holy Innocents), or that there's such a thing as BoB per say ... that would be heretical according to this teaching by Trent.  But then Trent isn't really teaching about the alleged "Three Baptisms", but as we saw when we look at the FULL CONTEXT (something BoDers never do), Trent is teaching, against the Prot errors, that justification begins with the Holy Ghost inspiring the dispositions for Baptism (the beginning of justification) through cooperation of the free will (related to votum), and culminating in justification itself, the instrumental cause of which is the Sacrament of Baptism.  That's it.  Trent is not teaching anything here about so-called BoD.

Even if you believe in BoD, Trent condemns the notion that justification can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  Even with BoD, the Sacrament would have to be held as the instrumental cause of said justification.  But the BoDer reading would have Trent saying that justification can happen "WITHOUT" the Sacrament of Baptism.

BoDer reading is completely destroyed, and there's no refutation for this.  Instead we get chaff from the dishonest BoDers, about the Catechism or Pius XII, and personal insults about "echo chambers" and "Manhattan juries".

I guess at least where it comes to the BoDer, I am an echo chamber, because you consistently ignore these very compelling arguments, and don't even attempt an actual refutation of them.  Instead you distract with irrelevant nonsense.  But I'm glad that there may be others of good will paying attention to this threat, as it's irrefutable that Trent is NOT teaching any "Baptism of Desire" ... for the reasons re-explained above.



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #429 on: April 08, 2023, 07:18:24 AM »
One of these guys here earlier tried to claim that justification could happen by the Holy Ghost alone, directly contradicting Our Lord's teaching about water AND the Holy Ghost.  You'll notice too that Our Lord mentions water FIRST.

So, from the beginning of justification, as explained above, the process culminates in ...
Quote
This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting ... the instrumental cause [of which justification] is the sacrament of baptism

Again the emphasis on "voluntary" reception, reinforcing that the cooperation of the will (votum) is necessary, an reiteration that justification cannot happen without the Sacrament but is caused instrumentally BY the Sacrament.