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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64312 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #410 on: April 07, 2023, 08:46:02 AM »
Quote from: AnthonyPadua on April 06, 2023, 07:17:04 PM
How it this an instance of BoD? Clearly this shows God's providence of bringing water baptism to those who He wills. Did the Eunuch even know about baptism inorder to desire it? Did he know about the Trinity and incarnation? Isn't the point of BoD that if you aren't baptized you can get BoD assuming you fully intended of getting baptized but also profess the basic tenants of faith (Trinity+incarnation). This man did not die, he literally got baptized with water as per John 3:5..
Of course the eunuch knew about baptism, it was he who asked for it, "the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth it hinder me from being baptized?" (36)  And Philip the deacon, beginning with the Isaiah quote "preached unto him Jesus." (35)  I can only assume that Philip preached the Incarnation and the Trinity, what else would it mean to "preach Jesus"?  I argue that in the history of the Church there might not be a clearer example of a person who "desired" baptism more than this eunuch.  In the space of several hours he went from being a pagan to becoming a member of the Church, all because God fulfills his promise, "knock and it shall be opened." 

The administration of the sacraments end when time ends.  Of course St. Thomas talks about the Eucharist continuing in heaven, etc.  I personally believe, and the Church has never defined, that on the Last Day, those who may have not been baptized with water (should they actually exist), will be baptized with water before entering heaven.  Provided there are human beings and water, baptism is possible.    
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #411 on: April 07, 2023, 08:55:12 AM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on April 07, 2023, 08:46:02 AM
Of course the eunuch knew about baptism, it was he who asked for it ...

So what?  Simply because the Holy Ghost was working to inspire the proper dispositions and intention to receive Baptism, this does not mean "BoD", just as it didn't mean "BoD" in the Cornelius passage.
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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #412 on: April 07, 2023, 09:21:13 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 07, 2023, 08:55:12 AM
So what?  Simply because the Holy Ghost was working to inspire the proper dispositions and intention to receive Baptism, this does not mean "BoD", just as it didn't mean "BoD" in the Cornelius passage.
I agree with you.  My point is that there is no example which I know of in Scripture of the man who wanted baptism and somehow could not get it, and thus the modern-day understanding of BofD must be applied. The eunuch actually proves the contrary of BofD.  My point is, if there were ever a candidate who could "get along without water baptism" it is this eunuch.  God worked a miracle to ensure his water baptism, and by all accounts he had a pure, sincere votum for baptism.  
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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #413 on: April 07, 2023, 05:42:10 PM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on April 07, 2023, 08:46:02 AM
Of course the eunuch knew about baptism, it was he who asked for it, "the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth it hinder me from being baptized?" (36)  And Philip the deacon, beginning with the Isaiah quote "preached unto him Jesus." (35)  I can only assume that Philip preached the Incarnation and the Trinity, what else would it mean to "preach Jesus"?  I argue that in the history of the Church there might not be a clearer example of a person who "desired" baptism more than this eunuch.  In the space of several hours he went from being a pagan to becoming a member of the Church, all because God fulfills his promise, "knock and it shall be opened."

The administration of the sacraments end when time ends.  Of course St. Thomas talks about the Eucharist continuing in heaven, etc.  I personally believe, and the Church has never defined, that on the Last Day, those who may have not been baptized with water (should they actually exist), will be baptized with water before entering heaven.  Provided there are human beings and water, baptism is possible.   
"34 And the eunuch answering Philip, said: I beseech thee, of whom doth the prophet speak this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip, opening his mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth hinder me from being baptized?"

You have the order wrong. Phillip talks about Jesus (and likely baptism) before the eunuch asks for it.

While it's possible for people to be baptized before the judgement of the last day it's speculation. Though there have been cases of people brought back to life to be baptized this only supports water baptism.

There's also the possibility of the Saints of the old law being baptized as the gospels mentions them being seen in the city, but this is only a potential and is speculative.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #414 on: April 07, 2023, 09:19:13 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 07, 2023, 08:11:47 AM
There are two possible readings of this passage.

BoDers interpretation:  "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  Either one suffices.

Non-BoDer interpretation:  "There can be no wedding without the bride or the groom."  Both are required.

We've spent the last 10-15 pages arguing about which is the correct reading of this passage.

The Catechism of Trent provides the solution to your interpretive dilemma:

Regarding Infant Baptism

"Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death."

Regarding Adult Baptism

"On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

The Church, in its gold standard Catechism, written by the same theologians who wrote the Council of Trent decrees, interpreted the phrase "aut ejus voto" as you say that the "BoDers" do, namely that "either one suffices" in the case of adults.
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