Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64298 times)

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #405 on:** April 06, 2023, 07:17:04 PM »

Quote from: OABrownson1876 on April 06, 2023, 02:59:42 PM

We have an instance of BoD in the Eunuch of Candace (Acts 8). He had "come to Jerusalem to adore."(27) We know that this man at least knew of the religion of the Jєωs and sought to adore the God of the Old Testament. We do not know his motives, but presume his sincerity, since God saw fit to send an angel to Philip, commanding him to go to "the desert," "the way that goeth from Jerusalem into Gaza." The Holy Ghost had obviously stirred up the soul of the eunuch. The Eunuch had been to Jerusalem, but had not heard about Christ there, and leaving the city he had a "desire" to follow the truth. The Eunuch was reading the truth, but did not understand the truth, hence his admission, "how can I (understand the truth), unless some man show me?"(31) And the Eunuch, after he had been preached to, admitted his belief in Christ, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."(37) Because the eunuch desired to know the truth, God confirmed the full truth (Baptism) in him.

How it this an instance of BoD? Clearly this shows God's providence of bringing water baptism to those who He wills. Did the Eunuch even know about baptism inorder to desire it? Did he know about the Trinity and incarnation? Isn't the point of BoD that if you aren't baptized you can get BoD assuming you fully intended of getting baptized but also profess the basic tenants of faith (Trinity+incarnation). This man did not die, he literally got baptized with water as per John 3:5..

Stubborn · « **Reply #406 on:** April 07, 2023, 05:45:17 AM »

Quote from: Geremia on April 06, 2023, 07:12:31 PM

Even if it doesn't, the Council of Trent very clearly does:

Sessio Sexta,

Sixth Session,
celebrata die XIII. Januarii 1547.
held January 13, 1547.
DECRETUM DE JUSTIFICATIONE.
DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION.

[…]

Caput IV.
Chapter IV.
Insinuatur descriptio justifactionis impii, et modus ejus in statu gratiæ.
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the manner thereof in the state of grace.
Quibus verbis justifications impii descriptio insinuatur, ut sit translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adæ, in statum gratiæ, et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam Iesum Christum, salvatorem nostrum: quæ quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut ejus voto, fieri non potest; sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,—as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, [Rom. 8:15,16,23] through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, can not be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written: unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the Kingdom of God. [Jn. 3:5]

I do not understand why the words "or the desire thereof" are apparently, the only words BODers seem to see.

Trent does *not* say "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, can be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, Trent says cannot be. Which means no sacrament = no justification.

Why on earth do BODers think Trent concludes the doctrine with John 3:5 "as it is written?"
Please explain.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #407 on:** April 07, 2023, 08:06:38 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on April 07, 2023, 05:45:17 AM

Why on earth do BODers think Trent concludes the doctrine with John 3:5 "as it is written?"

You keep misusing the phrase, "as it is written". This simply means that Trent is using 3:5 as proof for the prior statement. It's important because John 3:5 disambiguates the "without A or B" expression, but it's not being used in the sense that you've been using it.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #408 on:** April 07, 2023, 08:11:47 AM »

Quote from: Geremia on April 06, 2023, 07:12:31 PM

Even if it doesn't, the Council of Trent very clearly does:

Sessio Sexta,

Sixth Session,
celebrata die XIII. Januarii 1547.
held January 13, 1547.
DECRETUM DE JUSTIFICATIONE.
DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION.

[…]

Caput IV.
Chapter IV.
Insinuatur descriptio justifactionis impii, et modus ejus in statu gratiæ.
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the manner thereof in the state of grace.
Quibus verbis justifications impii descriptio insinuatur, ut sit translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adæ, in statum gratiæ, et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam Iesum Christum, salvatorem nostrum: quæ quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut ejus voto, fieri non potest; sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,—as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, [Rom. 8:15,16,23] through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, can not be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written: unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the Kingdom of God. [Jn. 3:5]

Why are you re-citing Trent as if it hadn't been already cited 25 pages earlier in this thread, and in fact the last 10 pages here have been arguing about what this passage means. Are you dense enough to claim that because the term votum (which is mistranslated as "desire") in a passage that it means Baptism of Desire? BoDers are constantly reading BoD into everything because they're obsessed with it. Theres no BoD in the episode regarding Cornelius. No, not every time the Holy Ghost appears is He justifying someone by BoD. Holy Ghost was not conferring BoD on Our Lady and the Apostles at Pentecost. Similarly, every time BoDers see the term "votum", they're like, "Look! BoD." They're basically begging the question.

So, just to rewind about 20 pages from this citation.

There are two possible readings of this passage.

BoDers interpretation: "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil." Either one suffices.

Non-BoDer interpretation: "There can be no wedding without the bride or the groom." Both are required.

We've spent the last 10-15 pages arguing about which is the correct reading of this passage.

Stubborn · « **Reply #409 on:** April 07, 2023, 08:31:14 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on April 07, 2023, 08:06:38 AM

You keep misusing the phrase, "as it is written". This simply means that Trent is using 3:5 as proof for the prior statement. It's important because John 3:5 disambiguates the "without A or B" expression, but it's not being used in the sense that you've been using it.

I'm not misusing it, I am saying it says that:
Justification is not possible without the sacrament or the desire [alone] for the sacrament, as it is written [i.e. which is to say] unless a man be born...
This is the only way Trent is not contradicting itself.

Otherwise, you are saying it says that:
Justification is not possible without the sacrament but is possible with a desire [alone] for the sacrament, [and not] as it is written unless a man be born...
This ^^ way is a full contradiction....
1st, justification is not possible without the sacrament.
2nd, justification is possible without the sacrament.
3rd, justification is not possible without the sacrament.

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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64298 times)

AnthonyPadua

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Stubborn

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Ladislaus

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Ladislaus

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Stubborn

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Sixth Session,
celebrata die XIII. Januarii 1547.	held January 13, 1547.
DECRETUM DE JUSTIFICATIONE.	DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION.

Caput IV.	Chapter IV.
Insinuatur descriptio justifactionis impii, et modus ejus in statu gratiæ.	A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the manner thereof in the state of grace.
Quibus verbis justifications impii descriptio insinuatur, ut sit translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adæ, in statum gratiæ, et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam Iesum Christum, salvatorem nostrum: quæ quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut ejus voto, fieri non potest; sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei.	By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,—as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, [Rom. 8:15,16,23] through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, can not be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written: unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the Kingdom of God. [Jn. 3:5]