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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 41303 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #405 on: April 06, 2023, 07:17:04 PM »
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  • We have an instance of BoD in the Eunuch of Candace (Acts 8).  He had "come to Jerusalem to adore."(27)  We know that this man at least knew of the religion of the Jєωs and sought to adore the God of the Old Testament.  We do not know his motives, but presume his sincerity, since God saw fit to send an angel to Philip, commanding him to go to "the desert," "the way that goeth from Jerusalem into Gaza."  The Holy Ghost had obviously stirred up the soul of the eunuch.  The Eunuch had been to Jerusalem, but had not heard about Christ there, and leaving the city he had a "desire" to follow the truth.  The Eunuch was reading the truth, but did not understand the truth, hence his admission, "how can I (understand the truth), unless some man show me?"(31)  And the Eunuch, after he had been preached to, admitted his belief in Christ, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."(37)  Because the eunuch desired to know the truth, God confirmed the full truth (Baptism) in him.
    How it this an instance of BoD? Clearly this shows God's providence of bringing water baptism to those who He wills. Did the Eunuch even know about baptism inorder to desire it? Did he know about the Trinity and incarnation? Isn't the point of BoD that if you aren't baptized you can get BoD assuming you fully intended of getting baptized but also profess the basic tenants of faith (Trinity+incarnation). This man did not die, he literally got baptized with water as per John 3:5..

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #406 on: April 07, 2023, 05:45:17 AM »
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  • Even if it doesn't, the Council of Trent very clearly does:

    Sessio Sexta,

    Sixth Session,
    celebrata die XIII. Januarii 1547.
    held January 13, 1547.
    DECRETUM DE JUSTIFICATIONE.
    DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION.



    […]

    Caput IV.
    Chapter IV.
    Insinuatur descriptio justifactionis impii, et modus ejus in statu gratiæ.
    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the manner thereof in the state of grace.
    Quibus verbis justifications impii descriptio insinuatur, ut sit translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adæ, in statum gratiæ, et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam Iesum Christum, salvatorem nostrum: quæ quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut ejus voto, fieri non potest; sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,—as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, [Rom. 8:15,16,23] through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, can not be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written: unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the Kingdom of God. [Jn. 3:5]
    I do not understand why the words "or the desire thereof" are apparently, the only words BODers seem to see.

    Trent does *not* say "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, can be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, Trent says cannot be. Which means no sacrament = no justification. 

    Why on earth do BODers think Trent concludes the doctrine with John 3:5 "as it is written?"
    Please explain.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #407 on: April 07, 2023, 08:06:38 AM »
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  • Why on earth do BODers think Trent concludes the doctrine with John 3:5 "as it is written?"

    You keep misusing the phrase, "as it is written".  This simply means that Trent is using 3:5 as proof for the prior statement.  It's important because John 3:5 disambiguates the "without A or B" expression, but it's not being used in the sense that you've been using it.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #408 on: April 07, 2023, 08:11:47 AM »
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  • Even if it doesn't, the Council of Trent very clearly does:

    Sessio Sexta,

    Sixth Session,
    celebrata die XIII. Januarii 1547.
    held January 13, 1547.
    DECRETUM DE JUSTIFICATIONE.
    DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION.



    […]

    Caput IV.
    Chapter IV.
    Insinuatur descriptio justifactionis impii, et modus ejus in statu gratiæ.
    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the manner thereof in the state of grace.
    Quibus verbis justifications impii descriptio insinuatur, ut sit translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adæ, in statum gratiæ, et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam Iesum Christum, salvatorem nostrum: quæ quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut ejus voto, fieri non potest; sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,—as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, [Rom. 8:15,16,23] through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, can not be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written: unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the Kingdom of God. [Jn. 3:5]

    Why are you re-citing Trent as if it hadn't been already cited 25 pages earlier in this thread, and in fact the last 10 pages here have been arguing about what this passage means.  Are you dense enough to claim that because the term votum (which is mistranslated as "desire") in a passage that it means Baptism of Desire?  BoDers are constantly reading BoD into everything because they're obsessed with it.  Theres no BoD in the episode regarding Cornelius.  No, not every time the Holy Ghost appears is He justifying someone by BoD.  Holy Ghost was not conferring BoD on Our Lady and the Apostles at Pentecost.  Similarly, every time BoDers see the term "votum", they're like, "Look!  BoD."  They're basically begging the question.

    So, just to rewind about 20 pages from this citation.

    There are two possible readings of this passage.

    BoDers interpretation:  "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  Either one suffices.

    Non-BoDer interpretation:  "There can be no wedding without the bride or the groom."  Both are required.

    We've spent the last 10-15 pages arguing about which is the correct reading of this passage.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #409 on: April 07, 2023, 08:31:14 AM »
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  • You keep misusing the phrase, "as it is written".  This simply means that Trent is using 3:5 as proof for the prior statement.  It's important because John 3:5 disambiguates the "without A or B" expression, but it's not being used in the sense that you've been using it.
    I'm not misusing it, I am saying it says that:
    Justification is not possible without the sacrament or the desire [alone] for the sacrament, as it is written [i.e. which is to say] unless a man be born...
    This is the only way Trent is not contradicting itself.

    Otherwise, you are saying it says that:
    Justification is not possible without the sacrament but is possible with a desire [alone] for the sacrament, [and not] as it is written unless a man be born...
    This ^^ way is a full contradiction....
     1st, justification is not possible without the sacrament.
     2nd, justification is possible without the sacrament.
     3rd, justification is not possible without the sacrament.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #410 on: April 07, 2023, 08:46:02 AM »
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  • How it this an instance of BoD? Clearly this shows God's providence of bringing water baptism to those who He wills. Did the Eunuch even know about baptism inorder to desire it? Did he know about the Trinity and incarnation? Isn't the point of BoD that if you aren't baptized you can get BoD assuming you fully intended of getting baptized but also profess the basic tenants of faith (Trinity+incarnation). This man did not die, he literally got baptized with water as per John 3:5..
    Of course the eunuch knew about baptism, it was he who asked for it, "the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth it hinder me from being baptized?" (36)  And Philip the deacon, beginning with the Isaiah quote "preached unto him Jesus." (35)  I can only assume that Philip preached the Incarnation and the Trinity, what else would it mean to "preach Jesus"?  I argue that in the history of the Church there might not be a clearer example of a person who "desired" baptism more than this eunuch.  In the space of several hours he went from being a pagan to becoming a member of the Church, all because God fulfills his promise, "knock and it shall be opened." 

    The administration of the sacraments end when time ends.  Of course St. Thomas talks about the Eucharist continuing in heaven, etc.  I personally believe, and the Church has never defined, that on the Last Day, those who may have not been baptized with water (should they actually exist), will be baptized with water before entering heaven.  Provided there are human beings and water, baptism is possible.    
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #411 on: April 07, 2023, 08:55:12 AM »
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  • Of course the eunuch knew about baptism, it was he who asked for it ...

    So what?  Simply because the Holy Ghost was working to inspire the proper dispositions and intention to receive Baptism, this does not mean "BoD", just as it didn't mean "BoD" in the Cornelius passage.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #412 on: April 07, 2023, 09:21:13 AM »
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  • So what?  Simply because the Holy Ghost was working to inspire the proper dispositions and intention to receive Baptism, this does not mean "BoD", just as it didn't mean "BoD" in the Cornelius passage.
    I agree with you.  My point is that there is no example which I know of in Scripture of the man who wanted baptism and somehow could not get it, and thus the modern-day understanding of BofD must be applied. The eunuch actually proves the contrary of BofD.  My point is, if there were ever a candidate who could "get along without water baptism" it is this eunuch.  God worked a miracle to ensure his water baptism, and by all accounts he had a pure, sincere votum for baptism.  
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #413 on: April 07, 2023, 05:42:10 PM »
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  • Of course the eunuch knew about baptism, it was he who asked for it, "the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth it hinder me from being baptized?" (36)  And Philip the deacon, beginning with the Isaiah quote "preached unto him Jesus." (35)  I can only assume that Philip preached the Incarnation and the Trinity, what else would it mean to "preach Jesus"?  I argue that in the history of the Church there might not be a clearer example of a person who "desired" baptism more than this eunuch.  In the space of several hours he went from being a pagan to becoming a member of the Church, all because God fulfills his promise, "knock and it shall be opened."

    The administration of the sacraments end when time ends.  Of course St. Thomas talks about the Eucharist continuing in heaven, etc.  I personally believe, and the Church has never defined, that on the Last Day, those who may have not been baptized with water (should they actually exist), will be baptized with water before entering heaven.  Provided there are human beings and water, baptism is possible.   

    "34 And the eunuch answering Philip, said: I beseech thee, of whom doth the prophet speak this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip, opening his mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth hinder me from being baptized?"

    You have the order wrong. Phillip talks about Jesus (and likely baptism) before the eunuch asks for it.

    While it's possible for people to be baptized before the judgement of the last day it's speculation. Though there have been cases of people brought back to life to be baptized this only supports water baptism.

    There's also the possibility of the Saints of the old law being baptized as the gospels mentions them being seen in the city, but this is only a potential and is speculative.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #414 on: April 07, 2023, 09:19:13 PM »
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  • There are two possible readings of this passage.

    BoDers interpretation:  "I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  Either one suffices.

    Non-BoDer interpretation:  "There can be no wedding without the bride or the groom."  Both are required.

    We've spent the last 10-15 pages arguing about which is the correct reading of this passage.

    The Catechism of Trent provides the solution to your interpretive dilemma:

    Regarding Infant Baptism

    "Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death."

    Regarding Adult Baptism

    "On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

    The Church, in its gold standard Catechism, written by the same theologians who wrote the Council of Trent decrees, interpreted the phrase "aut ejus voto" as you say that the "BoDers" do, namely that "either one suffices" in the case of adults.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #415 on: April 07, 2023, 09:33:26 PM »
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  • The Catechism of Trent provides the solution to your interpretive dilemma:

    Regarding Infant Baptism

    "Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death."

    Regarding Adult Baptism

    "On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

    The Church, in its gold standard Catechism, written by the same theologians who wrote the Council of Trent decrees, interpreted the phrase "aut ejus voto" as you say that the "BoDers" do, namely that "either one suffices" in the case of adults.
    The key phase is "will avail them to grace and righteousness.", which is talked about in the earlier posts of this thread. Are grace and righteousness attributes of the dead, or the living?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #416 on: April 07, 2023, 10:23:03 PM »
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  • The key phase is "will avail them to grace and righteousness.", which is talked about in the earlier posts of this thread. Are grace and righteousness attributes of the dead, or the living?

    He's simply rehashing and respamming the same nonsense that we've dealt with already on this thread.  It shows desperation as his idol of "BoD" crumbles before his eyes.

    Of course, even IF the Catechism were making reference to BoD (it's not), it would have nothing to do with interpreting this particular passage in Trent or its meaning.

    No, the disambiguation of Trent's meaning comes immediately afterwards with the Scripture proof text it cites for the statement.

    No justification without water or the votum, because Our Lord taught that water AND the Holy Spirit were necessary.  THAT is the disambiguation, not some passage in the Catechism that may or may not be related.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #417 on: April 08, 2023, 03:49:19 AM »
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  • The Catechism of Trent provides the solution to your interpretive dilemma:

    Regarding Infant Baptism

    "Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death."

    Regarding Adult Baptism

    "On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

    The Church, in its gold standard Catechism, written by the same theologians who wrote the Council of Trent decrees, interpreted the phrase "aut ejus voto" as you say that the "BoDers" do, namely that "either one suffices" in the case of adults.

    Angelus,

    You’re arguing before a “Manhattan jury.” May angels attend you.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #418 on: April 08, 2023, 03:52:55 AM »
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  • It shows desperation as his idol of "BoD" crumbles before his eyes.



    That’s one of the loudest echos to ever come from your echo chamber.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #419 on: April 08, 2023, 05:28:10 AM »
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  • The Catechism of Trent provides the solution to your interpretive dilemma:

    Regarding Infant Baptism

    "Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death."

    Regarding Adult Baptism

    "On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

    The Church, in its gold standard Catechism, written by the same theologians who wrote the Council of Trent decrees, interpreted the phrase "aut ejus voto" as you say that the "BoDers" do, namely that "either one suffices" in the case of adults.
    You bolded the wrong words so I fixed it.

    If you would have quoted the very next paragraph, perhaps you would have learned the reason the Church gives for the delay, which has got nothing to do with a BOD.......

    Quote
    Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular
    care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.

    Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to
    profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn
    ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the
    Sacrament.
    As regards the red text, note how Jєωs are singled out. Note how it is the Church ("ancient Councils") that set the rules of baptism ("by decree") for them in particular. Apparently, a BOD not apply to Jєωs.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse