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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64327 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #400 on: April 06, 2023, 03:36:05 PM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on April 06, 2023, 02:59:42 PM
We have an instance of BoD in the Eunuch of Candace (Acts 8).

Do we?  In point of fact we have no idea.  All we know is that the Holy Ghost was involved in inspiring her with the proper dispositions needed for Baptism, which happens whether there's a BoD or not.  We can't read stuff into passages every time we see mention of the Holy Ghost.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #401 on: April 06, 2023, 03:40:13 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 06, 2023, 03:33:46 PM
This was asked before you decided that you liked the justification vs. salvation distinction.

Wrong again. You asked your question pages after this post of mine:

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/the-catechism-of-the-council-of-trent-does-not-teach-baptism-of-desire/msg877424/#msg877424

In that post I made the distinction between "justification" and "salvation." Here's how I ended that post:

"I do not claim to speak for all formulations of "BoD." I am only referring to that formulation of BoD to be found in Trent Session 6, Chapter 4 that is referred to as "the desire for [the bath of regeneration]. Trent describes that form of BoD as one potential pathway to "justification" (not "salvation") with the caveat that BoD is not equivalent to the Sacrament of Baptism because BoD justifies but does not remit the temporal debt for sin, while the Sacrament of Baptism both justifies and does remit all temporal debt for sin as well."
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #402 on: April 06, 2023, 06:27:12 PM »
Quote from: Angelus on April 06, 2023, 03:40:13 PM
Wrong again. You asked your question pages after this post of mine:

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/the-catechism-of-the-council-of-trent-does-not-teach-baptism-of-desire/msg877424/#msg877424

In that post I made the distinction between "justification" and "salvation." Here's how I ended that post:

"I do not claim to speak for all formulations of "BoD." I am only referring to that formulation of BoD to be found in Trent Session 6, Chapter 4 that is referred to as "the desire for [the bath of regeneration]. Trent describes that form of BoD as one potential pathway to "justification" (not "salvation") with the caveat that BoD is not equivalent to the Sacrament of Baptism because BoD justifies but does not remit the temporal debt for sin, while the Sacrament of Baptism both justifies and does remit all temporal debt for sin as well."

No, that's in line with your idiotic mis-definition of salvation and has nothing to do with reality.  You keep blabbering like some moron about how the distinction between justification and salvation has to do with whether temporal punishment has been remitted.  Nobody accepted this idiocy.

In fact, it's heretical.  You clearly haven't been paying attention.

Trent:  there can be no initial JUSTIFICATION without rebirth
Trent:  rebirth means that no temporal punishment for sin remains.

QED:  there can be no temporal punishment remaining after initial justification.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #403 on: April 06, 2023, 06:31:07 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 06, 2023, 06:27:12 PM
Trent:  there can be no initial JUSTIFICATION without rebirth
Trent:  rebirth means that no temporal punishment for sin remains.

QED:  there can be no temporal punishment remaining after initial justification.

Explain what part of this doesn't register to your challenged brain.
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Offline Geremia

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #404 on: April 06, 2023, 07:12:31 PM »
Even if it doesn't, the Council of Trent very clearly does:

Sessio Sexta,

Sixth Session,
celebrata die XIII. Januarii 1547.
held January 13, 1547.
DECRETUM DE JUSTIFICATIONE.
DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION.



[…]

Caput IV.
Chapter IV.
Insinuatur descriptio justifactionis impii, et modus ejus in statu gratiæ.
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the manner thereof in the state of grace.
Quibus verbis justifications impii descriptio insinuatur, ut sit translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adæ, in statum gratiæ, et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam Iesum Christum, salvatorem nostrum: quæ quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut ejus voto, fieri non potest; sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,—as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, [Rom. 8:15,16,23] through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, can not be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written: unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the Kingdom of God. [Jn. 3:5]
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