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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64677 times)

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St Robert Bellarmine was born a few years before the start of the Council of Trent. In his work De Ecclesia, Book III: On The Church Militant, Chapter III On the Unbaptised, he teaches this:

"... it is said outside the Church no man is saved, and this ought to be understood on those who are neither in fact nor in desire within the Church, just as all the Theologians commonly teach on Baptism. Moreover, if the Catechumens are not in the Church de facto, at least they are in the Church in desire, therefore they can be saved. This is not opposed to the similitude of the Ark of Noah (outside of which no man was saved), even if he were in it by desire since similitudes do not agree in all things. For that reason, 1 Peter 3 compares Baptism to the ark of Noah and still it is certain that some are saved without Baptism in fact.

"But one might say, Augustine says that Catechumens are in the Church; it is true, but in the same place he separates them from the faithful. Therefore, he meant that they are in the Church not by act, but by potency, which he explains in the beginning of the 2nd book on the Creed, where he compares Catechumens to men who are conceived but not yet born."

It is certain that some are saved without Baptism in fact. It is certain. Immediately following the Council of Trent. Saint, Bishop and Doctor of the Church, St Robert Bellarmine.

St Robert Bellarmine was born a few years before the start of the Council of Trent. In his work De Ecclesia, Book III: On The Church Militant, Chapter III On the Unbaptised, he teaches this:

"... it is said outside the Church no man is saved, and this ought to be understood on those who are neither in fact nor in desire within the Church, just as all the Theologians commonly teach on Baptism. Moreover, if the Catechumens are not in the Church de facto, at least they are in the Church in desire, therefore they can be saved. This is not opposed to the similitude of the Ark of Noah (outside of which no man was saved), even if he were in it by desire since similitudes do not agree in all things. For that reason, 1 Peter 3 compares Baptism to the ark of Noah and still it is certain that some are saved without Baptism in fact.

"But one might say, Augustine says that Catechumens are in the Church; it is true, but in the same place he separates them from the faithful. Therefore, he meant that they are in the Church not by act, but by potency, which he explains in the beginning of the 2nd book on the Creed, where he compares Catechumens to men who are conceived but not yet born."

It is certain that some are saved without Baptism in fact. It is certain. Immediately following the Council of Trent. Saint, Bishop and Doctor of the Church, St Robert Bellarmine.
St. Robert Bellarmine didn't just teach BOD, he taught that the Council of Trent teaches BOD. Is anyone going to say that the words of the Council can't be misunderstood, and at the same time say St. Robert Bellarmine misunderstood them?  Or is anyone willing to claim they understand what the council meant better than St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus Liguori, Suarez, Cornelius a Lapide, and many more who specifically understood the Council to be teaching BOD?

St. Robert Bellarmine, De Baptismo, Lib. I, Cap. VI

Quote
But it must be believed without doubt that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when, not of contempt, but of necessity some die without Baptism of water.  It is expressly stated, Ezech. 18, if the wicked do penance for all his sins, I will not remember all his iniquities.  Thus also Ambrose clearly teaches in his oration on the death of Valentinian the younger:  Whom I was, he says, about to regenerate, I have lost; but he did not lose the grace which he had hoped for.  Thus also Augustine lib.4. de baptism, cap.22. & Bernard epist.77 & after them Innocent III. cap. Apostolicam, de presbytero non baptizato, whence also the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4 says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire.




Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
St Robert "believed" that catechumens might have BOD.  Ok, fine.  St Thomas talks about the same thing.

The heresy begins when you start to apply the word "catechumen" incorrectly.  When you say that Jєωs, muslims, pagans, unbaptized protestants, etc can have BOD.  They cannot and that is grave error and a denial of Trent.  Why?  Because these groups of people cannot be catechumens, in the proper sense.

If one is a formal catechumen, this means they have 1) rejected their former false religion, 2) are formally learning the Faith at a Catholic Church, 3) have an express desire to become a Catholic.

If someone does not fulfill the above general requirements, then they aren't a catechumen and the St Thomas/St Robert's writings don't apply.

Offline TheRealMcCoy

  • Supporter
St Robert "believed" that catechumens might have BOD.  Ok, fine.  St Thomas talks about the same thing.

The heresy begins when you start to apply the word "catechumen" incorrectly.  When you say that Jєωs, muslims, pagans, unbaptized protestants, etc can have BOD.  They cannot and that is grave error and a denial of Trent.  Why?  Because these groups of people cannot be catechumens, in the proper sense.

If one is a formal catechumen, this means they have 1) rejected their former false religion, 2) are formally learning the Faith at a Catholic Church, 3) have an express desire to become a Catholic.

If someone does not fulfill the above general requirements, then they aren't a catechumen and the St Thomas/St Robert's writings don't apply.

Here, here.  I get tired of people arguing that an unrepentant Protestant/Jew/musloid/whatever can be saved by BOD.  Why don't we apply this "logic" to Stalin, Hitler, Cromwell..........

So many modernists....so little time.

Here, here.  I get tired of people arguing that an unrepentant Protestant/Jєω/musloid/whatever can be saved by BOD.  Why don't we apply this "logic" to Stalin, Hitler, Cromwell..........

So many modernists....so little time.
A Protestant, is possibly/likely baptised, in which case BOD would not apply, but who can know if a Protestant is "unrepentant" when he dies? Who knows the state of any soul entering their eternity? God alone, unless by special revelation.

Cromwell, being a Puritan, was also almost certainly baptised.

Stalin and Hitler were born Catholics and surely received the sacrament of baptism. You definitively exclude the possibility of their conversion, the possibility that they died in God's grace? That is not Catholic. Admittedly, who would want to be in their shoes? But that is beside the point.

The infidel, the pagan? Let it suffice to say, that if they are saved, it is only in and through the Catholic Church. Imagine some pygmy in a rainforest in deepest darkest Africa isolated from all civilization, let alone Christianity. Did God create this soul? Does He have an infinite love for them? Does he not desire the salvation of that soul that He created infinitely? Will He not give them the means to attain the end for which He created them, and which He Himself infinitely desires? Given that the Church teaches BOD, obviously God does save souls without the ordinary means of sacramental baptism. Now if a soul like this, in invincible ignorance, seeks and desires God and wants with all his heart to know and love and obey Him, will God not take this desire, just like He takes BOD, for the reality of Charity and take that soul to rejoice with Him in the blessedness of Heaven? No one is saying it is not rare. No one is denying EENS. God's mercy is infinite. That does not deny His Justice. Any soul, whoever and wherever they may be, that truly seeks God in this life, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Moslem... any soul that seeks God will not be confounded. You judge the exterior. God judges the interior. God looks at the heart.