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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64308 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #385 on: April 05, 2023, 04:27:03 PM »
Fr. Feeney was definitely correct that "salvation" is not possible without the Sacrament of Baptism. But he was not saying that "justification" is not possible without the Sacrament of Baptism, which is what I have argued in this thread. In other words, a soul in that state, if there are such souls, would be in a kind of "limbo." And it just so happens that the Bible talks about such a "limbo." It was called the "limbo of the just" aka "the bosom of Abraham. And that situation required at a extraordinary, supernatural act of Jesus descending into Hell to free the "just" from "limbo" and bring them to "salvation."

You act like this is something new, Father Feeney's distinction between justification and salvation.  Even if you yourself just figured it out, as it would seem, all the posters who have been arguing against you here are very well aware of Father's distinction.  So your condescending attitude of mansplaining things that to other posters who, unlike yourself, are too dense to understand, is rather unwarranted.

In fact, this (or, rather, a variant on it) is my position as well ... I started an entire thread on it ... where a kind of washing "justification" is possible short of salvific Baptism.  St. Ambrose wrote of unbaptized martyrs being "washed but not crowned."

What's disputed is whether this washing constitutes merely a removal of sin and the punishment due to it, so that those who are so washed would end up just like the infants who die unbaptized (who have no guilt of sin but no sanctifying grace either) or else like the Fathers in the Limbo Patrum, where they were in a state of grace (St. Joseph, St. John the Baptist, and many others) and yet unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  I personally believe that there may be a combination of both.

These are different theories and speculations, but at the end of the day we all agree that there can be no entry into the Kingdom of Heaven without having actually received the Sacrament of Baptism.  And, no, God does not recognize any such thing as impossibility in His bringing the Sacrament to His elect.  And, no, the Church would not be "condemning" countless souls to Hell by refusing to teach BoD.  Hell and the punishments of Hell are all due directly or indirectly to one's wilfull actions and sins, and they're the natural ramifications thereof.  Nobody will be punished in Hell who doesn't deserve it by having committed actual sin.  But, as St. Gregory nαzιanzen taught, there are those who are not so bad as to be punished, but not good enough to be glorified.  There's an in-between.  Our Lord Himself said that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, but that those who do not believe will be condemned ... leaving a group in between who are neither saved nor condemned.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #386 on: April 05, 2023, 05:30:15 PM »

Quote
So there is a possible in-between state open for theological discussion (meaning not heretical): it is a state where the soul is "justified" by something other than the Sacrament but is not prepared for "salvation" because the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for "salvation."
Thank you, Captain Obvious.


Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #387 on: April 05, 2023, 05:50:48 PM »
Sadly, the apparent defenders of Fr. Feeney in this thread do not seem to really understand the nuances of Fr. Feeney's teaching.
What you fail to understand is that most of 'us' aren't 'feenites', thIs is some bull label made up to detract from EENS. Just because someone holds water baptism doesn't make them a 'feenites'.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #388 on: April 05, 2023, 06:11:08 PM »
What you fail to understand is that most of 'us' aren't 'feenites', thIs is some bull label made up to detract from EENS. Just because someone holds water baptism doesn't make them a 'feenites'.
Also the context of Trent is to condemn protestant doctrines, faith alone and BoD are very similar except for the 'in voto' trick because it still requires the basic faith and relies on the actual Sacrament in 'some' manner. But there are many passages in scripture showing people getting baptized who otherwise might be called 'invincibly ignorant'. The point is, as others have pointed out, it makes no sense to believe that God won't or is not capable of getting someone baptized if He wills it regardless of "impossibility".

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #389 on: April 06, 2023, 05:26:36 AM »
My two favorite Fr. Feeney quotes from Bread of Life on the subject of a BOD, of which, btw, no BODer has ever acknowledged, much less attempt to give reply.

#1 "There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed,
Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics. The clear truths of salvation, I am
preaching to you."


#2 "I have said that a Baptism-of-Desire Catholic is not a member of the Church. He cannot be prayed for after death as one of "the faithful departed." Were he to be revivified immediately after death – were he to come to life again – he would not be allowed to receive Holy Eucharist or any of the other Sacraments until he was baptized by
water. Now, if he can get into the Church Triumphant without Baptism of Water, it is strange that he cannot get
into the Church Militant without it. It is an odd procedure for priests of the Church Militant to be shunting people
off to the Church Triumphant before these people have enrolled in the a Church Militant, which fights the good
fight and preserves the Faith."