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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64329 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #365 on: April 04, 2023, 10:07:06 AM »
Quote from: trad123 on April 03, 2023, 07:26:21 PM
Hopefully this venn diagram shows up, I've also attached it.

Regarding cannon 30,  if the statement “to every repentant sinner” includes both those who receive the grace of justification, whether it be in Baptism or Penance, then both are repentant sinners.

One cannot say all repentant sinners are without the debt of temporal punishment, as that would only apply to the newly baptized.






There is a big problem with this Venn diagram;  Venn diagrams can be quite tricky if one fails to wrap his head around what is being said.  Penance presupposes Baptism, meaning that one cannot receive validly "Confession" unless he has been baptized.  The entire "Penance" circle in this Venn diagram should be inside the "Baptism" circle.  This is a very sloppy Venn diagram.  There is not even a valid absolution unless one has been "baptized."  The unbaptized can go to confession and "desire" all day long, it will avail him nothing! Even the Blessed Virgin, had she gone to confession (even though she was completely without sin), would not have received sacramental graces from confession had she not been baptized.  One must become a member of the Church (Baptism) in order to receive the graces from the other sacraments.    
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #366 on: April 04, 2023, 10:17:38 AM »
Quote
Take the example of Innocent III:

Denzinger 411

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/the-catechism-of-the-council-of-trent-does-not-teach-baptism-of-desire/msg877636/#msg877636


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This is contrary to the Christian religion, that anyone always unwilling and interiorly objecting be compelled to receive and to observe Christianity. On this account some absurdly do not distinguish between unwilling and unwilling, and forced and forced, because he who is violently forced by terrors and punishments, and, lest he incur harm, receives the sacrament of baptism, such a one also as he who under pretense approaches baptism, receives the impressed sign of Christianity, and he himself, just as he willed conditionally although not absolutely, must be forced to the observance of Christian Faith. . . . But he who never consents, but inwardly contradicts, receives neither the matter nor the sign of the sacrament, because to contradict expressly is more than not to agree. . . . The sleeping, moreover, and the weak-minded, if before they incurred weak-mindedness, or before they went to sleep persisted in contradiction, because in these the idea of contradiction is understood to endure, although they have been so immersed, they do not receive the sign of the sacrament; not so, however, if they had first lived as catechumens and had the intention of being baptized; therefore, the Church has been accustomed to baptize such in a time of necessity. Thus, then the sacramental operation impresses the sign, when it does not meet the resisting obstacle of a contrary will.
First he says one who violently has the sacrament forced on them and receives the sacrament albeit begrudgingly, does indeed receive the sacrament.

Then he says when the one receiving it expressly does not want it but receives it anyway "receives neither the matter nor the sign," that appears to mean what you've been saying, that the baptism never happened "because to contradict expressly is more than not to agree." Which is to say he still has Original Sin on his soul because he not only did not desire to be baptized, he received it against his will.


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Offline trad123

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #367 on: April 04, 2023, 10:23:17 AM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on April 04, 2023, 10:07:06 AM
The entire "Penance" circle in this Venn diagram should be inside the "Baptism" circle.


Agreed, however I could not find a free online venn diagram generator that could do that.

I should have made it in Paint, instead.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #368 on: April 04, 2023, 03:21:54 PM »
"Laver" is the greek word for "washing".  So "laver of regeneration" would be the act of washing in baptism, or the matter/form.  That is, the pouring of water and the form of the sacramental prayer.

So, "Laver of Regeneration" (matter/form) + Desire (proper disposition) = sacrament.
As, "Water" (natural means) + "Holy Ghost" (supernatural means) = sacrament.

Thus, you have to have both for the sacrament.  Can you only have the desire?  Sure.  Will that justify you?  It seems likely.  Will you go to heaven only justified, but not baptized?  Don't know.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #369 on: April 04, 2023, 03:40:47 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 04, 2023, 03:21:54 PM
"Laver" is the greek word for "washing".  So "laver of regeneration" would be the act of washing in baptism, or the matter/form.  That is, the pouring of water and the form of the sacramental prayer.

So, "Laver of Regeneration" (matter/form) + Desire (proper disposition) = sacrament.
As, "Water" (natural means) + "Holy Ghost" (supernatural means) = sacrament.

Thus, you have to have both for the sacrament.  Can you only have the desire?  Sure.  Will that justify you?  It seems likely.  Will you go to heaven only justified, but not baptized?  Don't know.

Our Lord taught us that one cannot enter the Kingdom (have the beatific vision) unless one is born again OF water (and of the Holy Ghost).  So even in a BoD scenario, they must be born OF the water and cannot be born without it or without the laver in order to enter the Kingdom.

So the dispute is whether someone can be born OF the water without actually having the water poured on him.

To say that one can be born again (justified) WITHOUT the water, without the laver ... that's just plain heretical.  And that's why the BoDer reading of Trent must be rejected.
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