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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64339 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #350 on: April 04, 2023, 06:57:26 AM »
The only thing that I can think of, that needs to be articulated on, is how is laver of regeneration is to be understood in the case of infants who are incapable of such a desire.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #351 on: April 04, 2023, 07:02:14 AM »
Quote from: Angelus on April 03, 2023, 07:30:17 PM
CHAPTER VI.

The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.
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I thought my previous answer would be obvious enough. The quote above from the Council of Trent does not mention belief (explicit or implicit) in "the Holy Trinty" or in "the Incarnation." So, according the the Fathers of the Council of Trent, belief in those two things would not be necessary for "justification." On that question, I would not dare to contradict Trent.

They believe God's revelation, and specifically, that "God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." It make more sense to read that as including a knowledge of Christ's divinity, which implies knowledge of the Trinity and Incarnation. 

I would not exclude the necessity of explicit faith in the Trinity and Incarnation on the basis of that passage. In fact, I think it would be very rash and even dangerous to do so on that basis.   
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Offline trad123

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #352 on: April 04, 2023, 07:02:46 AM »
Also adults who are incapable of such consent, the mentally retarded.
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Offline trad123

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #353 on: April 04, 2023, 07:06:11 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on April 04, 2023, 07:02:14 AM
They believe God's revelation, and specifically, that "God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." It make more sense to read that as including a knowledge of Christ's divinity, which implies knowledge of the Trinity and Incarnation.

I would not exclude the necessity of explicit faith in the Trinity and Incarnation on the basis of that passage. In fact, I think it would be very rash and even dangerous to do so on that basis. 


It's very likely such explicit faith is the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

I also think such a denial makes a mockery of the Athanasian Creed
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #354 on: April 04, 2023, 07:06:57 AM »
Quote from: trad123 on April 04, 2023, 06:57:26 AM

The only thing that I can think of, that needs to be articulated on, is how is laver of regeneration is to be understood in the case of infants who are incapable of such a desire.

Yes, I brought this up pages ago, in posts ##184 and 188.

Quote

So say you and Stubborn, etc. Yet if there can't be justification without both the water AND the desire, what about children? They are justified by the water, and do not have the desire. Yet they are justified.


I can anticipate your possible answer, but I'll wait to hear from you.

. . .


It sure doesn't appear obvious that it applies only to adults, but the contrary appears obvious, i.e. that it applies to all men.


Quote

Quote
CHAPTER III.


Who are justified through Christ.

But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.

CHAPTER IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

CHAPTER V.

On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds.

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults . . .

Trent makes the point that all men, as the seed of Adam and by "propagation" itself, are "unjust." Section III. It again refers to a "state" of  injustice into which they are "born (as) a child of the first Adam." Section IV. This patently includes children: all men simply by birth.


In then goes on to note a distinction "in adults," where there is a preparation necessary - catechesis, etc. Section V.

Ummm,  it appears "obvious" that you're wrong in exempting children from the necessity for justification identified in Section IV.

So  the "desire" is not necessary for some men, and Trent doesn't indicate that there must be water AND desire for the justification for all  men.

The "or" of the "water or desire" of Section IV appears to indeed be disjunctive for some,  e.g. children at the least.

So then the translation from an unjust "child of Adam" to a state of grace is affected without both the water and desire for some men. Which is a bit of problem for the necessary Feeneyite reading.



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