Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64353 times)

Plenus Venter · « **Reply #330 on:** April 03, 2023, 08:52:32 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on April 03, 2023, 08:36:51 PM

Oh, but, in the appendix to the larger work to which you refer, he does agree with me and with Trent. St. Peter Canisius (Doctor of the Church) states in his Appendix (AN APPENDIX OR ADIDITION OF THE FALL OF MAN AND Justification according to the sentence and doctrine of the Councell of Trent):

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8 A description of the Iustification of a wicked mā, & the manner thereof, in the state of grace. IN which wordes is insinuated the description of a wicked mans iustificati∣on: so that it is a translation from that state in the which man is borne the Sonne of the first ADAM, into the state of grace, & adoption of the Sonnes of God, by the second ADAM IESVS CHRIST our Sauiour. Which trans∣lation certes, after the Gospell once pub∣lished, cannot be made without the lauer of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written: Vnlesse a man bee borne againe of water and the spirite, he cannot enter into the king∣dome of God.

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A69066.0001.001/1:8?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

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So, now your ace, St. Peter Canisius (Doctor of the Church), does not even to agree with you. Will you try to find another one?

Unfortunately, Angelus, it doesn't help. This is the teaching of the Council verbatim. But our friends read this as "without both the laver of regeneration and the desire for it", i.e. two necessary conditions: the sacrament, and the desire of the sacrament (without the desire the sacrament avails nothing). They believe St Robert Bellarmine, St Alphonsus, etc, etc, also misunderstand what the Council says here...

Angelus · « **Reply #331 on:** April 03, 2023, 09:05:56 PM »

Quote from: trad123 on April 03, 2023, 08:47:49 PM

If this chart doesn't post, I also uploaded it.

. . . this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof, as it is written: Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

As it is written says water and the Holy Spirit, both are needed.

If "or" means "one or the other" then forced baptisms would be valid.

if "or" means "one and the other" then both are needed.

Sorry, the category of "forced baptism" is impossible in the context of Justification. Read Session 6, chapter 6, on Preparation. In the context of Justification, a "forced baptism" would not be possible because the internal conversion of the sinner must happen before either the Sacrament is received or the "desire for the Sacrament" in manifested.

So in the context of Justification, there are only two possible options: the Sacrament itself or the desire for the Sacrament. As such, the fact that the conjunction OR is used can mean nothing other than there are two options.

This interpretation also agrees with the section from the Roman Catechism quoted above when discussing adult catechumens. And with all the Saints who are Doctors of the Church who have been quoted in this thread. And with the perennial practice of the Roman Catholic Church which recommends many months of preparation before adults receive the Sacrament.

trad123 · « **Reply #332 on:** April 03, 2023, 09:11:07 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on April 03, 2023, 09:05:56 PM

So in the context of Justification, there are only two possible options: the Sacrament itself or the desire for the Sacrament. As such, the fact that the conjunction OR is used can mean nothing other than there are two options.

That's precisely my point, you think the sacrament alone suffices for justification.

Laver of regeneration alone = no desire

trad123 · « **Reply #333 on:** April 03, 2023, 09:14:53 PM »

Father Kramer to the Feeneyites

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/father-kramer-to-the-feeneyites/

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Posted on Facebook, April 27, 2014

Father Kramer wrote:

TO ALL FEENEYITES:

Your disagreement with the infallibly defined doctrine of Baptism of Desire is as irrational as it is heretical. You have no excuse: Justification takes place by the laver of regeneration or the desire of it ("aut ejus voto").

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/father-kramer-to-the-feeneyites/msg389281/#msg389281

Quote

Father Kramer is then, of necessity, arguing that forced baptisms are efficacious to salvation. When speaking of adults (because the referneced canon is concerning the baptism of the impious), if either the water or desire separate from each other is enough to save, making desire alone enough to save, then necessarily water alone saves despite the will.

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/father-kramer-to-the-feeneyites/msg389434/#msg389434

Quote

That's because if you turn the "laver" / "desire" phrase into either/or (as I've pointed out myriad times), you're saying that the Sacrament suffices without the desire. And Trent has two or three canons which explicitly reject the notion that Baptism can be efficacious without the desire (=votum = will =cooperation). This proves that Trent was teaching about the need for cooperation of the will and not the so-called Baptism of Desire.

Despite his bloviations about anathemas, it's ironically Mr. Kramer who falls under the anathema of Trent by denying the need for the desire in order to be justified in Baptism. "Father" Kramer would do well to investigate the validity of his "Holy Orders" and also needs to supplement his Novus Ordo "theological" training.

trad123 · « **Reply #334 on:** April 03, 2023, 09:24:43 PM »

This is what it boils down to:

. . . this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof, as it is written: Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

As it is written says water and the Holy Spirit, both are needed.

What we are saying:

. . . this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without water or the desire thereof, as it is written: Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

Instead, you are saying:

. . . this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the Sacrament of Baptism (with desire included implicitly in that term) or the desire thereof, as it is written: Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64353 times)

Plenus Venter

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Angelus

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

trad123

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

trad123

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

trad123

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire