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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64367 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #300 on: April 03, 2023, 03:44:57 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 03, 2023, 03:13:12 PM
That's all fine and dandy but Trent doesn't explain any of this.  So Ott's explanation is purely speculative.
What Trent definitely teaches is that there is something called "the desire for [the bath of regeneration]" that confers "justification" on the soul having such a "desire." This is the concept of BoD within the context of the docuŠ¼ents from the Council of Trent. That there is such a thing as BoD and that it deals with "justification" is part of the infallible Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

You are correct that Trent does not discuss the all the details of BoD at length. So, the precise details surrounding BoD are in the realm of "theological opinion." There is room for discussion about those details within limits.

But there is no room for discussion about whether BoD per se is orthodox or heretical. BoD, understood at least to the extent described in the Trent "Decree on Justification," is orthodox. To claim that BoD, as Trent uses the phrase, is "heretical" would be to deny the authority of the Council of Trent.

And to say that "Ott's explanation is purely speculative" is baseless. In fact, it is the "common opinion" of Church theologians, which is why Ott included it in his textbook anyway. The "purely speculative" opinions on BoD are from those, with no formal theological training or authority, who refuse to accept the "common opinion" of the Church theologians prior to VII.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #301 on: April 03, 2023, 04:23:04 PM »
Quote
So, the precise details surrounding BoD are in the realm of "theological opinion."
First you said this.

Quote
And to say that "Ott's explanation is purely speculative" is baseless.
Then you said this.

Do you not see the contradiction?  If we don't know the details (which you affirmed), then someone who attempts to provide details (Ott), through an explanation, is speaking speculatively (Ott's attempt = speculation).

:laugh1:  You guys are so hell-bent on blindly defending this "doctrine" that you're not reading plain english
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #302 on: April 03, 2023, 04:38:32 PM »
Quote from: Angelus on April 03, 2023, 03:44:57 PM
What Trent definitely teaches is that there is something called "the desire for [the bath of regeneration]" that confers "justification" on the soul having such a "desire."

False.  That's precisely what we're debating here and disagreeing with, and you're just restating your opinion.

You've not addressed any of the solid arguments against your position but simply keep restating it.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #303 on: April 03, 2023, 04:43:06 PM »
As I've pointed out, there are two possible readings of the crucial text.  We're debating which one is better.

Even IF the BoDer interpretation is correct (and there's no way I see it because, as I pointed out, the logical corollary is a heresy), Trent would be saying that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the desire.  Trent never taught that justification can happen by the desire alone, but is effectively saying that you have to have the Sacrament AT LEAST IN DESIRE (leaving open the possibility).  There's nowhere any positive teaching in that regard, that the desire alone suffices.  In other words, it would be saying that you have to say that the Sacrament is necessary at least in desire to avoid the heresy of denying the necessity of the Sacrament.

But the BoDer intepretation is certainly false.  If you say that justification can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament, that's the very heresy being condemned throughout the treatise on justification.

"I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil."  This means that I CAN write a letter WITHOUT a pen (if I have a pencil).  CAN I be justified WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism?  Absolutely not.  Even if you believe in BoD, you can't say that this magical "BoD" process can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #304 on: April 03, 2023, 04:54:59 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 03, 2023, 04:23:04 PM
First you said this.
Then you said this.

Do you not see the contradiction?  If we don't know the details (which you affirmed), then someone who attempts to provide details (Ott), through an explanation, is speaking speculatively (Ott's attempt = speculation).

:laugh1:  You guys are so hell-bent on blindly defending this "doctrine" that you're not reading plain english

There is no contradiction. To say that subject matter, like the precise details of BoD, are in the realm of "theological opinion" is to say that it is not "infallible or official Magisterium." 

In the realm of "theological opinion" there are different degrees of certainty. A "common opinion" of the theologians is equivalent to saying the teaching is "settled" and not disputed by authoritative theologians who have discussed the concept. 

To say something is "purely speculative" implies that the concept either has little rational basis or that there is little agreement among those authorized by the Church to determine such things. That is not the case with the concept of BoD. Ott was not pronouncing his own opinion. He was summarizing the "common opinion" of the authoritative theologians.

BoD per se (i.e., that there is such a thing as BoD) is infallible Magisterium. Certain details surrounding the concept of BoD have been officially pronounced (e.g., that it pertains to "justification" and is not identical to the Sacrament of Baptism). Other details surrounding the concept of BoD have not been officially added to the Magisterium, but have been logically "settled" by authoritative theologians.
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