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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64383 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #295 on: April 03, 2023, 11:25:17 AM »
Read Canon 30 again carefully.

I see you've read it for the first time without the ellipses.  Canon 29 is transitioning over into being about Confession.  Trent never refers to un-baptized as "sinners" but reserves that term for those who have lost justification after Baptism.  Nor has anyone said that "every sinner" has all temporal punishment remitted due to being restored to a state of justification ... that part you conveniently dishonestly omitted when accusing me of heresy.  You deliberately omitted it because you knew it undermined your bogus argument.

Certainly not EVERY sinner has temporal punishment remitted.

But those who experience their initial justification most certainly do.

Trent is quite clear.  Initial justification = rebirth or regeneration, stating that no one can transition from the fallen state to the state of justification without a rebirth.  Rebirth Trent then defines as meaning that all temporal punishment is removed.  Very straightforward.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #296 on: April 03, 2023, 11:33:09 AM »
Trent Session 6:

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CHAPTER VI.

The manner of Preparation.

See where it says "Preparation"?  In order to properly receive the Sacrament, it's necessary to have repented of your past sins.  This is a prerequisite for being justified in the Sacrament, but it's the Sacrament itself that blots out all sin, original and actual, as well as all temporal punishment due to sin, ex opere operato.  If someone were still intent upon continuing in grave sin, then they would not be justified even when receiving the Sacrament.  But if they have the proper dispositions, then the initial justification conferred in Baptism wipes away all sin.  Similarly, if someone had no natural faith in the Church or if someone did not intend to receive the Sacrament, they would receive the character but no justification.  Let's say I just walked by and randomly baptized some infidel.  I would commit a sacrilege since the individual would receive the Baptismal character, but no justification due to lack of proper dispositions.  But IF they were justified in Baptism or in their initial justification, they are reborn.

Initial Justification = Rebirth
Rebirth (as the term inherently suggests) = a total cleansing of anything that would prevent entry into Heaven (including temporal punishment due to past sins)

It couldn't get simpler than that.

You've effectively denying Our Lord's teaching that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being "born again" (and Trent defines the term "born again" very clearly).


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #297 on: April 03, 2023, 11:42:06 AM »
I was about to ask regarding the need for the sacrament of confession, where does that leave the lerfect act of contrition, or circuмstances where no priest is available to hear the confession, but it looks like the above post addresses the confusion about the subject of the canons.

That's actually a part that's very often left out in explaining perfect contrition to the faithful.  It's often said that you can be restored to a state of justification MERELY by perfect contrition.  This is untrue.  There must also be an intention to receive the Sacrament "in due time".  It basically means that the next opportunity you have, you'll go to Confession.  You are not required to run out and wake up a priest at 3AM to immediately confess as soon as you've made a perfect act of contrition.  You can just think, "I'm going to Confession on Sunday before Mass."  And of course if there's no priest available, this does not impact the INTENTION to go to Confession.  You intend to go as soon as you can (reasonably) have access to a priest.

Imagine someone who makes some act of contrition, where they're truly sorry for their sins, but then think, but I don't really want or intend to go to Confession anytime soon (perhaps because they're embarrassed of the sin).  That would impede their justification.  It's a pretty serious omission in most Trad "teaching" on the subject about "perfect contrition".

In fact, the original preparatory text of Trent actually had it that perfect contrition alone restored to justification, but the Pope intervened and ordered it, undoubtedly inspired by the Holy Ghost, to add the requirement to intend to go to Confession.  Pope argued that there can be no forgiveness of sin and restoration to justification without reference to the power of the Church to forgive sins.  This is actually another big problem for those who claim that Prots and other non-Catholics can be justified by "perfect contrition" ... even when they don't believe in and even despise the Sacrament of Confession and don't believe that the Church has the authority to forgive sins.

Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #298 on: April 03, 2023, 02:15:45 PM »
Initial Justification = Rebirth
Rebirth (as the term inherently suggests) = a total cleansing of anything that would prevent entry into Heaven (including temporal punishment due to past sins)

It couldn't get simpler than that.

You've effectively denying Our Lord's teaching that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being "born again" (and Trent defines the term "born again" very clearly).

Here is a quote from the section discussing BoD in Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

"Baptism of desire works ex opere operantis. It bestows sanctifying grace, which remits original sin, all actual sins, and the eternal punishment for sin. Venial sins and temporal punishments for sin are remitted according to the intensity of the subjective disposition. The baptismal character is not imprinted, nor is it the gateway to the other sacraments."

Ott's book was a standard pre-VII textbook for Catholic seminarians. It agrees with that I said. 

Again, BoD (properly understood) does not work like the Sacrament of Baptism. 


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #299 on: April 03, 2023, 03:13:12 PM »

Quote
Here is a quote from the section discussing BoD in Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

"Baptism of desire works ex opere operantis. It bestows sanctifying grace, which remits original sin, all actual sins, and the eternal punishment for sin. Venial sins and temporal punishments for sin are remitted according to the intensity of the subjective disposition. The baptismal character is not imprinted, nor is it the gateway to the other sacraments."
That's all fine and dandy but Trent doesn't explain any of this.  So Ott's explanation is purely speculative.