Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64384 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #280 on: April 02, 2023, 05:47:59 AM »
Was it? Let's you and me try to find it. I'm trying. Lend a hand.

But I don't think it will matter, will it? I suspect you'll still read the text your way, even if a conspiracy of later "insertion" is dispelled.


There's a book called "Sources of Baptism of Blood and Desire" - Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire : Christopher P. Conlon : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I
f you review it, you will see that the post-Trentian sources on BOD almost always, when they cite a support, cite the Council of Trent itself. There was a universal consensus that that's what Trent said in Session VI, Chapter 4 - one could be justified by a desire for the sacrament. If one thought Trent itself said that, why would one quote the Catechism on BOD? No one questioned Trent itself on BOD, and it was not necessary to refer to the Catechism as there was no controversy that Trent itself said it until the late 1940s or 1950s and, subsequently, "Feeneyism."

In response to a challenge that Trent referred to BOD, one would naturally go then to the Catechism of the Council. There would be no need in the absence of a dispute or challenge as to what Trent itself said.

This did not start with Fr. Feeney, by the way I'm not a "feeneyite" neither is Friarminor. We don't agree with Fr. Feeney on justification. DecemRationis is saying "there was no controversy that Trent itself said it until the late 1940s or 1950s and, subsequently, "feeneyism" I already mentioned Pope Gregory XIII right after the Trent Catechism that the Church did not consider those who had not been baptized to be in the FAMILY OF CHRIST which is the CHURCH. St. Gregory nαzιanzen, St Leo I, Pope Gregory XIII & Pope Eugene IV weren't "feeneyites" they held water baptism.

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #281 on: April 02, 2023, 05:53:56 AM »
Excellent post, everyone needs to see this. I would give thanks buy it's doesn't let me.

Unfortunately most trads will not go out of their comfort zone to take in and consider this point of view and it's doesn't help that they would rather follow the clergy who teach BoB/BoD/II then do their own research. Also the clergy themselves are very stubborn in regards to looking at all the information.
I can't do the thumbsy up thingy too Anthony, but we can do this


Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #282 on: April 02, 2023, 10:12:30 AM »
This did not start with Fr. Feeney, by the way I'm not a "feeneyite" neither is Friarminor. We don't agree with Fr. Feeney on justification. DecemRationis is saying "there was no controversy that Trent itself said it until the late 1940s or 1950s and, subsequently, "feeneyism" I already mentioned Pope Gregory XIII right after the Trent Catechism that the Church did not consider those who had not been baptized to be in the FAMILY OF CHRIST which is the CHURCH. St. Gregory nαzιanzen, St Leo I, Pope Gregory XIII & Pope Eugene IV weren't "feeneyites" they held water baptism.

You have not identified any controversy or dispute about whether the Council of Trent referred to baptism of desire before what is commonly understood and described as "Feeneyism," where I therefore still maintain it started.

You are right that you don't agree with Fr. Feeney on Feeneyism, since Fr. Feeney I believe conceded that Trent indicated baptism of desire could justify . . . but not save.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #283 on: April 02, 2023, 10:49:07 AM »
In his quote above, Ladislaus seems to take as his position what Canon 30 (Canons on Justification) has anathematized:

Ladislaus: "there are serious problems with BoD theory holding that temporal punishment can remain after BoD."

Trent Canon 30: "If anyone saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received...that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment...let him be anathema."

You really tried the ellipses trick?  :facepalm:  Unbelievable.  This Canon is about the Sacrament of Confession.  This exposes the abject dishonesty of most BoDers right here.

Of initial justification, Trent teaches:
1) there can be no initial justification without regeneration or rebirth (as Our Lord taught that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of Heaven)
2) regeneration / rebirth Trent defines as ridding the soul of any sin or stain of sin so that there's nothing left that would prevent the soul from immediately entering Heaven

Here's the entirety of Canon 30:
Quote
Canon 30.

If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 29, right before it is already in the section of Canons on Confession:
Quote
Canon 29.

If anyone says that he who has fallen after baptism cannot by the grace of God rise again, or that he can indeed recover again the lost justice but by faith alone without the sacrament of penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and Universal Church, instructed by Christ the Lord and His Apostles, has hitherto professed, observed and taught, let him be anathema.

Canon is speaking of repentant sinners (which you ellipsesed out).  Where exactly did I say that temporal punishment is removed from "every repentant sinner" (the part that you conveniently excised from the Canon)?  You accuse me of heresy by removing key sections that prove otherwise.  Shame.

In Session 6 (the one on Baptism), Chapter III, we read:
Quote
so if they were not born again in Christ, they would never be justified, since in that new birth there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace by which they are made just.

In Session 5 (on Original Sin), Chapter V, we read:
Quote
For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.

There can be no initial justification without rebirth, and rebirth is defined as being made completely new "in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #284 on: April 02, 2023, 01:12:49 PM »
:facepalm:  Yeah, canon 30 is obviously referring to confession.  Come on, people.  Read slower and pray for understanding.  Or be honest.  Whichever solution fits your problem.