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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64407 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #260 on: March 31, 2023, 12:10:21 PM »
1.  BOD is not in every catechism.  It started being inserted in the 1700/1800s.  Examples:  Some posters here in the past showed pictures of the original Baltimore Catechism which has no mention of it.  But subsequent editions mentioned it.  It was added. 

Also, catechisms aren't infallible, so any errors contained aren't a problem for indefectibility.

2.  BOD speculation is not "universal" therefore there is no "universal error". 
a.  St Thomas (and others of the Middle Ages) source St Augustine as the basis; but not Scripture/Revelation/Tradition.  Not sure why they didn't realize he recanted his opinion??  Probably because they were just debating the issue and didn't consider it a doctrine worth much research time.
b.  St Bellarmine is clear that it's his opinion and based on St Thomas (which is based on St Augustine).
c.  I've never heard of any Doctor/Saint make an argument from Scripture or anyone besides St Augustine.
d.  St Augustine isn't infallible nor can he be viewed as "Tradition".
e.  Trent itself quotes Christ in Scripture (repeatedly) which mentions 2 necessary things - faith and water.  Trent never says, explicitly, that only faith suffices.
f.  Any saint/doctor or holy person who comments on Christ's teaching ALWAYS says that faith/water are necessary for Baptism.  This cannot be questioned.
g.  Ergo, BOD is speculative, just due to the lack of explanation, lack of details, lack of scripture/tradition proofs and the problem of varied/differing explanations of it. 

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #261 on: March 31, 2023, 04:08:50 PM »
1.  BOD is not in every catechism.  It started being inserted in the 1700/1800s.  Examples:  Some posters here in the past showed pictures of the original Baltimore Catechism which has no mention of it.  But subsequent editions mentioned it.  It was added. 

Also, catechisms aren't infallible, so any errors contained aren't a problem for indefectibility.

2.  BOD speculation is not "universal" therefore there is no "universal error". 
a.  St Thomas (and others of the Middle Ages) source St Augustine as the basis; but not Scripture/Revelation/Tradition.  Not sure why they didn't realize he recanted his opinion??  Probably because they were just debating the issue and didn't consider it a doctrine worth much research time.
b.  St Bellarmine is clear that it's his opinion and based on St Thomas (which is based on St Augustine).
c.  I've never heard of any Doctor/Saint make an argument from Scripture or anyone besides St Augustine.
d.  St Augustine isn't infallible nor can he be viewed as "Tradition".
e.  Trent itself quotes Christ in Scripture (repeatedly) which mentions 2 necessary things - faith and water.  Trent never says, explicitly, that only faith suffices.
f.  Any saint/doctor or holy person who comments on Christ's teaching ALWAYS says that faith/water are necessary for Baptism.  This cannot be questioned.
g.  Ergo, BOD is speculative, just due to the lack of explanation, lack of details, lack of scripture/tradition proofs and the problem of varied/differing explanations of it.

A lot of this is opinion, but I'll deal with the erroneous factual assertion:

Quote
BOD is not in every catechism.  It started being inserted in the 1700/1800s.  Examples:  Some posters here in the past showed pictures of the original Baltimore Catechism which has no mention of it.  But subsequent editions mentioned it.  It was added.

Wrong. It's in The Catechism of Trent (1566). I know, I know: you dispute that. And there's the Catechism of St. Peter Canisius (late 1550s or so), St. Robert Bellarmine's Catechism (1598), and the Douay Catechism (1649). It would be interesting to see any later editions of St. Peter's after the Catechism of Trent, if there are such.  BOD is not mentioned by Canisius (again, that's before the Catechism of Trent), but St. Robert's and the Douay (subsequent to Trent's) do mention it (though I guess you claim it was "inserted" - Lol). In any event, it's clearly mentioned (inserted) before the 1700s.

I'd like to see those pics of the original Baltimore Catechism: it would be interesting.

So, the only one that doesn't mention it that I'm aware of is the Canisius's. And that's before the Catechism of Trent.



Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #262 on: March 31, 2023, 04:39:41 PM »
The Bellarmine Catechism is interesting in light of the controversy here on whether the Catechism of Trent has in mind a catechumen who dies before receipt of the sacrament:


Quote
T. The necessity of Baptism is so great that if anyone were to die without reception of Baptism, or at least desire for it, he could by no means enter heaven. Because infants are liable to danger of this sort, and can easily die, but still do not have capacities to desire Baptism, therefore it is necessary to baptize them as soon as possible. And although they do not understand that which they receive, nevertheless, the Church supplies that which it responds and pledges for them by means of the godparents, which suffices. Just as by Adam we have all fallen into sin and disfavor with God when we still did not know it, so also it is enough for God if, through Baptism and the Church, we are freed from sin and received in its grace even if we do not yet notice.

The above is from Ryan Grant's translation of Doctrina Christiana: The Timeless Catechism of St. Robert Bellarmine. 

Online Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #263 on: March 31, 2023, 05:10:21 PM »

Quote
Wrong. It's in The Catechism of Trent (1566). I know, I know: you dispute that. And there's the Catechism of St. Peter Canisius (late 1550s or so), St. Robert Bellarmine's Catechism (1598), and the Douay Catechism (1649).
The question is:  Was BOD in the original text (i.e. the original language...latin), or only in the "translated" texts (i.e. english, italian, etc)?  And when was it translated?

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #264 on: March 31, 2023, 09:41:22 PM »

The argument is simply this: the defect of a lack of receipt may be "supplied." It is impossible "to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament at least in voto et proximo, disposition." Nothing more. I'm quoting from Orestes Brownson, whom I quoted a few pages back.

So let's make distinctions.

If you can understand that core concept which is a common denominator of every saint, doctor who is a BOD proponent (and there are none post-Trent who aren't) - and no one who says you must apply it beyond catechumen who are desiring baptism has any authority to insist on their particular understanding - why do you reject it because some take it further than it has been taken?

Do you reject Vatican I and the plenary jurisdiction and power of the pope because some believe it means a pope has the authority to promulgate the changes of the New Mass? I trust not.

This type of "slippery slope" argument can be used against almost any legitimate principle. One need be very careful making it, as it could lead to rejection of valid principles because of the fallibility of men in running with them. It's a type of ad hominum argument addressed not only against an individual but mankind in general.

The principle should be examined on its own merits. 

Because Trent reiterates "as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." And also because the majority of the early fathers held to water baptism, and St. Gregory nαzιanzus denies it.

Finally, corrupt fruits only come from a corrupt tree. The fruits of BoD is seen in V2 and salvation outside the church.....