Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 47 48 [49] 50 51 ... 102

Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64405 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #240 on: March 28, 2023, 11:07:07 AM »
I've long said that based on the teaching of Trent, that even if one believes in BoD, one must hold that the Sacrament of Baptism remains the instrumental cause of said justification even in a BoD scenario.

But to read the "without the laver or the desire" passage the way BoDers do, one would have to say as the necessary logical corollary that justification can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism ... but that is false, and condemned as heretical by the Council itself.  This doesn't rule out BoD theory/speculation, but it's very clear that Trent is not actively teaching that justification CAN happen through the votum alone.
Logged

Offline Comrade

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #241 on: March 28, 2023, 11:09:33 AM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 28, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
.
Supernatural faith can only be received once? :confused:
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 28, 2023, 10:59:04 AM
What he's (obviously) saying is that you can't RECEIVE supernatural faith if you ALREADY HAVE IT.  You can't receive it two supernatural faiths.
Just like you can only receive the Sacrament of Baptism once. Right? This has become a very strange thread.
Logged

Offline Mithrandylan

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #242 on: March 28, 2023, 11:13:03 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 28, 2023, 10:57:23 AM
Coming from someone who doesn't understand what a "system of theology" is.  There's no system of theology, just a theological position on one particular subject, and I stuck my name on it to indicate that it's unique.  This is done all the time, to associate a particular position with an individual who came up with it.  It's neither "Feeneyism" nor "Dimondism" nor "BoDism", so this is a label to distinguish it.  I argue that it's what St. Ambrose and some other Fathers held, except that at the time they did not have a term "BoD", which was made up long after them.
.
Ah, yes, when you name a theological system (er, position) after yourself you're being traditional and when I copy and paste Trent I'm being self-important. Must be because of how much more learned you are, forgive me. 
...
Am I doing it right?
Logged

Offline Mithrandylan

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #243 on: March 28, 2023, 11:16:10 AM »
Quote from: Comrade on March 28, 2023, 11:09:33 AM
Just like you can only receive the Sacrament of Baptism once. Right? This has become a very strange thread.
.
Even someone who has supernatural faith can have *more* supernatural faith super-added onto their existing 'amount'. That's what happens, for instance, when a catechumen who already has supernatural faith is baptized. 
.
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #244 on: March 28, 2023, 11:25:50 AM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 28, 2023, 11:16:10 AM
Even someone who has supernatural faith can have *more* supernatural faith super-added onto their existing 'amount'. That's what happens, for instance, when a catechumen who already has supernatural faith is baptized.

Quod gratis affirmatur, gratis et negatur.  Reason that the catechumen asks faith from the Church is precisely because the Sacrament of Baptism is what bestows supernatural faith, and not just "more" of it.  There's no theology anywhere that the Sacrament would give "MORE" supernatural faith, an increase in charity, or anything else along those lines.  Nowhere has an increase of faith been listed by theologians as an effect of the Sacrament of Baptism.  INCREASES of supernatural faith are not conferred ex opere operato by a Sacrament.

It's very obvious that the Rite assumes that the Catechumen lacks supernatural faith before the Sacrament and then (normally, barring some impediment) has it after the Sacrament.

You could argue that it's merely a presumption that the Catechumen lacks it, and that it's possible that he has it ahead of time (per BoD theory), but you needn't do violence to the clear intent / understanding of the Rite itself to make it fit your theology.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 47 48 [49] 50 51 ... 102
« previous next »