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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64450 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #225 on: March 28, 2023, 07:55:42 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 28, 2023, 07:49:53 AM
This is not referring to supernatural faith, which only God can provide.  If we say that BOD can provide supernatural Faith (or that one can have supernatural faith before Baptism), then we are espousing the same error of "salvation by Faith" that the protestants support, who say one can gain salvation by human means (which was condemned by Trent).
:facepalm:

There are a large segment of Prots - Calvinists - who believe salvation is by faith alone and not gained by human means at all.  
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #226 on: March 28, 2023, 08:04:05 AM »
Quote
There are a large segment of Prots - Calvinists - who believe salvation is by faith alone and not gained by human means at all. 
Trent defined "human means" as being outside the sacrament.  Or, natural faith.  Or, human faith.

We can have "faith in God" in the natural sense but we can only have "that faith which saves" if God gives it to us, through the Church, at Baptism.  2 different kinds of Faith.

Trent explains all of this.  Go re-read it.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #227 on: March 28, 2023, 08:07:17 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 28, 2023, 08:04:05 AM
Trent defined "human means" as being outside the sacrament.  Or, natural faith.  Or, human faith.

We can have "faith in God" in the natural sense but we can only have "that faith which saves" if God gives it to us, through the Church, at Baptism.  2 different kinds of Faith.

Trent explains all of this.  Go re-read it.
Quote
CHAPTER VI.



The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.


Yes, Trent does explain it. 

That faith is not natural, and it is not "outside the sacrament."
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #228 on: March 28, 2023, 09:30:24 AM »

Quote
Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice
Disposed = prepared for.  They have not yet been justified.


CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that by the said sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred through the act performed, but that faith alone in the divine promise suffices for the obtaining of grace; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #229 on: March 28, 2023, 09:31:04 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 28, 2023, 08:04:05 AM
Trent defined "human means" as being outside the sacrament.  Or, natural faith.  Or, human faith.

We can have "faith in God" in the natural sense but we can only have "that faith which saves" if God gives it to us, through the Church, at Baptism.  2 different kinds of Faith.

Trent explains all of this.  Go re-read it.

I saw a discussion of this somewhere ... think it may have been Catholic Encyclopedia.  This is referred to by the term "fides initialis", a natural analogue to supernatural faith.  In a sense, there's a natural progression where you have to have human/natural faith before you end up in supernatural faith.  You could also have natural faith and never receive the gift of supernatural.  I recall a certain rabbi that Bishop Williamson knew, and the rabbi basically said that Catholicism was the true religion.  When asked why he didn't conver then, he said that he didn't have the gift of faith.

Catechumens ASK for faith at their Baptism, where they request SUPERNATURAL faith, but obviously they couldn't even ask for it if they did not have some type of prelminary form of "faith" to begin with.
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