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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64481 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #200 on: March 24, 2023, 01:50:37 PM »
For anyone to presume that a sacrament can exist in voto is, in reality, the denial of the definition of the term sacrament, which is, 'a sensible sign, instituted by Christ, which gives sanctifying grace.'  Just imagine a man receiving the graces of Marriage because he had a 'votum' to receive marriage.  The whole idea is theologically ridiculous.  None of the sacraments can be had by desire, and the only remote example which comes to mind is making an act of perfect contrition in place of sacramental confession, which supplies the grace in place of the sacrament.  But to my mind the Church has never defined "perfect contrition," but theologians have spoken of it.  But "perfect contrition" presumes that one has been previously sacramentally baptized.       

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #201 on: March 24, 2023, 01:53:30 PM »
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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #202 on: March 25, 2023, 12:12:14 AM »
So when Our Lord said that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless he has been born (again) of water AND the Holy Ghost, He really meant of water OR the Holy Ghost?
Our Lord also said "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you". Are there exceptions? Does desire suffice in certain circuмstances, even implicit?

Again, the Holy Ghost declares "for all have sinned", yet we do believe in the Immaculate Conception, do we not?

We are not Protestants.

But why not ask one of the great Scripture scholars of the post-Trent period?

Cornelius a Lapide (1567-1637), who taught at the Gregorian University in Rome in the years after Trent, gave this explanation of this very verse (John 3:5) in his Great Commentary: "Lastly, born of water ought here to be understood either in actual fact, or by desire. For he who repents of his sins, and desires to be baptised, but either from want of water, or lack of a minister, is not able to receive it, is born again through (ex) the desire and wish for baptism. So the Council of Trent clearly explains this passage (sess 7 can 4 de Sacramentis in Genere)".

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #203 on: March 25, 2023, 12:48:08 AM »
But instead we render it as, "Justification can happen with the laver or else just the votum (Holy Ghost), since Our Lord taught that water and the Holy Ghost are required."  That's absurd.
Is it not many orders of magnitude more absurd that any Catholic could prefer his understanding of Trent to the plethora of learned Doctors and theologians who understand Trent to be teaching Baptism of Desire, the same doctrine taught by the Angelic Doctor, whose Summa was so venerated at the Council, and the Fathers and Doctors of old?

It is just impossible to find a Catholic resource that specifically treats of Baptism of Desire that condemns it, just as it is so easy to find an exposition of the Catholic Faith that affirms it.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott teaches under the heading "The Necessity of Baptism", "2. Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism: In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)" There follows a half page explanation. Is there a theology manual that condemns it? Is there a theology manual that pronounces it condemned by the Council of Trent?


Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #204 on: March 25, 2023, 05:42:30 AM »
Is it not many orders of magnitude more absurd that any Catholic could prefer his understanding of Trent to the plethora of learned Doctors and theologians who understand Trent to be teaching Baptism of Desire, the same doctrine taught by the Angelic Doctor, whose Summa was so venerated at the Council, and the Fathers and Doctors of old?

It is just impossible to find a Catholic resource that specifically treats of Baptism of Desire that condemns it, just as it is so easy to find an exposition of the Catholic Faith that affirms it.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott teaches under the heading "The Necessity of Baptism", "2. Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism: In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)" There follows a half page explanation. Is there a theology manual that condemns it? Is there a theology manual that pronounces it condemned by the Council of Trent?

Plenus Venter,

Because you have the Catholic faith, certainly you agree that for each and every baptized human, including yourself, and no matter the circuмstances, due to it's necessity that Almighty God Himself provided each and everyone one with the time to do it, and the water for doing it, and the minister for doing it.

Because you have the Catholic faith, certainly you agree that that it is by the very same Providence that God arranges it for everyone and anyone else who desires or is willing to receive it, because of it's necessity. Because of it's necessity, God even provides it for infants, who are altogether incapable of desiring it.

As you agree with the above, then certainly you agree that if Almighty God did *not* provide those things, then not a single person, including yourself, including even the Apostles, would have ever been baptized.

Therefore certainly you agree that that for the future, if Almighty God does not provide those things then not a single person ever will be baptized.

As such you agree that it is not possible for there to ever be a circuмstance that would prevent God from providing the sacrament to one who desires it.

So believing all of the above, why go on and on about a BOD, which wholly eliminates God's providence in the matter? "Without Me you can do nothing." John 15:5