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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64503 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #190 on: March 24, 2023, 11:30:08 AM »
It sure doesn't appear obvious that it applies only to adults, but the contrary appears obvious, i.e. that it applies to all men.

That term "impious" right before the disputed statement is a theological term never applied to those only in Original Sin.  Session VI (this decree) was about justification of adults.  Session V dealt with the justification of infants through Baptism.

Aside from that, St. Alphonsus says that any necessary votum is supplied in infant Baptism by the parents/godparents.  This is why you can't baptize an infant against the wishes of the parents unless he's in danger of death, in which case the Church supplies the votum.  Why do you think that in Baptism, the "infant" is asked, "What do you seek from the Church?"  "Do you wish to be baptized?"  Godparents then respond on behalf of the infant.  So you need to try something else.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #191 on: March 24, 2023, 11:30:45 AM »
That's why the Church has Godparents.  They make a promise to raise the child Catholic if the parents are lax.  The Godparents also provide the desire, as a proxy, for the child.


It's also why the Church forbids baptism of children into non-catholic/anti-catholic homes.  Desire is necessary.

Sorry.  You beat me to it.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #192 on: March 24, 2023, 11:40:42 AM »
Of course we need to expose the hypocritical dishonesty of Decem, who holds that Ecuмenical Councils can err except when they're explicitly defining something, but then tries to adduce a narrative section of an Ecuмenical Council as proof of something when there's nothing being defined here.  There's no, "unless someone says that justification can be received by the desire alone, let him be anathema." in the Canons section associated wiith this decree on justification.  At best, even if one were to concede the BoDer interpretation of the passage, this passage is leaving the question open as a possibility ... as even the poster ByzCath (who's pro BoD admitted).  There's no positive definition of BoD anywhere in Church history ... which is why for every BoDer you get a different definition of what it is.  One does not give the assent of faith to a concept "BoD" but to specific propositions, and there's no proposition or set of propositions to which the slippery and amorphous BoD speculation can be reduced.  That's prima facie evidence the Church has defined it.  Nor can it be defined, since there's zero evidence that BoD was revealed to anyone.  It's made up, total speculation.  And it will be condemned by the Church one day, or at least forbidden.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #193 on: March 24, 2023, 11:56:00 AM »
That's why the Church has Godparents.  They make a promise to raise the child Catholic if the parents are lax.  The Godparents also provide the desire, as a proxy, for the child.


It's also why the Church forbids baptism of children into non-catholic/anti-catholic homes.  Desire is necessary.

So Section IV does apply to infants?

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #194 on: March 24, 2023, 12:02:19 PM »
That term "impious" right before the disputed statement is a theological term never applied to those only in Original Sin.  Session VI (this decree) was about justification of adults.  Session V dealt with the justification of infants through Baptism.

Aside from that, St. Alphonsus says that any necessary votum is supplied in infant Baptism by the parents/godparents.  This is why you can't baptize an infant against the wishes of the parents unless he's in danger of death, in which case the Church supplies the votum.  Why do you think that in Baptism, the "infant" is asked, "What do you seek from the Church?"  "Do you wish to be baptized?"  Godparents then respond on behalf of the infant.  So you need to try something else.

So the Church, or the godparents, provide what is lacking in the infant (the vow, the desire), but the Holy Ghost can't supply for a lack of water?