Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64484 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #185 on:** March 24, 2023, 09:57:26 AM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on March 24, 2023, 09:43:55 AM

So say you and Stubborn, etc. Yet if there can't be justification without both the water AND the desire, what about children? They are justified by the water, and do not have the desire. Yet they are justified.

I can anticipate your possible answer, but I'll wait to hear from you.

Uhm, the answer is obvious, because this section is explicitly referring to the justification of adults, and says so at the beginning and then spends many paragraphs discussing the necessary dispositions to receive the Sarament of Baptism before this particular sentence.

Stubborn · « **Reply #186 on:** March 24, 2023, 10:36:27 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 24, 2023, 08:20:52 AM

You're still poorly wording this idea. As is, what you wrote is wrong. A sacrament doesn't give justification/grace? That's their essential purpose! That's the only reason they exist.

Ok, the way Trent worded it the way they did, is because the sacraments may be received unworthily, as such Trent never says there is certainty of justification or salvation, only that without them there is no justification. They worded it the same way when they mention a desire for the sacraments.

Trent says: Justification "cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof."

Trent is NOT saying Justification "will be effected with the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof" presumably Trent, in her wisdom, worded it this way because the sacrament of baptism my be received unworthily. Although this is how BODers read it, but that's only apparently because they simply cannot see or understand it any other way, they certainly do not see it as Trent taught it.

Stubborn · « **Reply #187 on:** March 24, 2023, 10:42:53 AM »

DecemRationis · « **Reply #188 on:** March 24, 2023, 10:44:39 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on March 24, 2023, 09:57:26 AM

Uhm, the answer is obvious, because this section is explicitly referring to the justification of adults, and says so at the beginning and then spends many paragraphs discussing the necessary dispositions to receive the Sarament of Baptism before this particular sentence.

It sure doesn't appear obvious that it applies only to adults, but the contrary appears obvious, i.e. that it applies to all men.

Quote

CHAPTER III.

Who are justified through Christ.

But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.

CHAPTER IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

CHAPTER V.

On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds.

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults . . .

Trent makes the point that all men, as the seed of Adam and by "propagation" itself, are "unjust." Section III. It again refers to a "state" of injustice into which they are "born (as) a child of the first Adam." Section IV. This patently includes children: all men simply by birth.

In then goes on to note a distinction "in adults," where there is a preparation necessary - catechesis, etc. Section V.

Ummm, it appears "obvious" that you're wrong in exempting children from the necessity for justification identified in Section IV.

So the "desire" is not necessary for some men, and Trent doesn't indicate that there must be water AND desire for the justification for all men.

The "or" of the "water or desire" of Section IV appears to indeed be disjunctive for some, e.g. children at the least.

So then the translation from an unjust "child of Adam" to a state of grace is affected without both the water and desire for some men. Which is a bit of problem for the necessary Feeneyite reading.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #189 on:** March 24, 2023, 10:55:42 AM »

Quote

what about children? They are justified by the water, and do not have the desire.

That's why the Church has Godparents. They make a promise to raise the child Catholic if the parents are lax. The Godparents also provide the desire, as a proxy, for the child.

It's also why the Church forbids baptism of children into non-catholic/anti-catholic homes. Desire is necessary.

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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire (Read 64484 times)

Ladislaus

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Stubborn

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Stubborn

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

DecemRationis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire

Pax Vobis

Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire