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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64511 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #170 on: March 23, 2023, 05:11:41 PM »
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So I think the two interpretations are not far off.
The wedding feast parable is not similar to the Apocalypse robes of the Just.  The Haydock bible does not make this connection.  Unless some other saint does?  It's new to me.

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But I think that a baptized soul in a state of grace is in the same situation of cleanness as a justified soul in a state of grace. Both the baptized soul and the justified soul (BoD) are clean at the moment of regeneration but can lose their state of grace.
Then you are minimizing the purpose/effects of the baptismal character, the same as the Protestants, who believed we can be saved by "faith (desire) alone".  Trent even anathamatizes those who say that baptism does not impart a character on the soul.  If Trent went so far as to point out this necessary aspect of Baptism, then we can't brush it aside and say that BOD justification = baptismal state of grace.  Apples vs bananas.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #171 on: March 23, 2023, 05:29:11 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 23, 2023, 05:11:41 PM

The wedding feast parable is not similar to the Apocalypse robes of the Just.  The Haydock bible does not make this connection.

Then you are minimizing the purpose/effects of the baptismal character, the same as the Protestants, who believed we can be saved by "faith (desire) alone".  Trent even anathamatizes those who say that baptism does not impart a character on the soul.  If Trent went so far as to point out this necessary aspect of Baptism, then we can't brush it aside and say that BOD justification = baptismal state of grace.  Apples vs bananas.

No, I'm not minimizing anything. I did not say that "faith alone" = desire. You said that. BoD is a recognition of one's filthiness in sin and a "desire" to be cleansed of that filthiness by God's grace. Yes, to have faith that God's grace can bring about that cleansing is a necessary prerequisite. But "faith alone" is not BoD properly understood.

And I did not say that the Sacrament of Baptism "does not impart a character on the soul." But the baptized person can lose his state of grace by committing a mortal sin and until he is absolved of that mortal sin, he cannot go to Heaven.

And I did not say that "BoD justification = baptismal state of grace." I said that BoD and the Sacrament of Baptism both bring about a "state of grace" in the person's soul. But BoD does not affect temporal debt for sins committed, while the Sacrament of Baptism remits ALL temporal debt for sins committed to that point in the baptized person's life.

BoD and the Sacrament of Baptism have only one important thing in common. They both confer a "state of grace" (temporary in many souls). But BoD and the Sacrament differ in other important ways. BoD IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE for the Sacrament.

BoD is like climbing Everest in shorts and a t-shirt. The further you go, the more likely you are to die. The Sacrament is like going on a guided climb of Everest with world-renowned experts and every imaginable danger potentially mitigated by some kind of technology. It would be crazy to choose BoD over the Sacrament.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #172 on: March 23, 2023, 06:01:16 PM »
If BOD isn’t a substitute then you can’t say that it gets you to heaven.  Trent says that only the sacrament gets us to heaven.  So the Everest analogy does not jive with Trent.  You should say “I don’t know if they make it to the top of mountain (heaven) or not.”  None of us knows.  Not until the Church makes it clear. 
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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #173 on: March 23, 2023, 06:57:01 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 23, 2023, 06:01:16 PM
If BOD isn’t a substitute then you can’t say that it gets you to heaven.  Trent says that only the sacrament gets us to heaven.  So the Everest analogy does not jive with Trent.  You should say “I don’t know if they make it to the top of mountain (heaven) or not.”  None of us knows.  Not until the Church makes it clear.

You stated the following:

"Trent says that only the sacrament gets us to heaven."

Please show me this quote (or similar) from the docuмents of Trent.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #174 on: March 23, 2023, 07:33:16 PM »
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"Trent says that only the sacrament gets us to heaven."


Here's the logic from Trent:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Major 1:  Water is necessary for baptism (doctrine)
Major 2:  Baptism is necessary for salvation (doctrine)
Minor 1:  BOD is not a sacrament, nor does it replace water baptism (fact)
Minor 2:  Trent mentions "desire" in the section on justification.
Conclusion 1:  Water is necessary, as part of baptism, for salvation.
Conclusion 2:  BOD can provide justification but not salvation, because it's not a sacrament.
Conclusion 3:  What happens to those who die justified but pre-baptism?  Trent does not say.  In absence of Trent's guidance, we cannot say that BOD justification provides heaven. 
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