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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64570 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #155 on: March 23, 2023, 02:24:16 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 23, 2023, 02:09:59 PM
Ok, so you're saying that Trent/St Alphonsus are to be followed on BOD and everyone else (St Augustine, St Thomas, St Bellarmine, Pope Innocent III, etc) are to be rejected?

How can you ask such a question after saying the following a few posts back?

"If BOD'ers would simply try to explain it ONLY using Trent's words, I think the theory would be drastically different than is understood today.  Most of them have never read the entire section on justification so they don't even know how Trent defines it."

So I then, "explain it ONLY using Trent's words" and you ask me if Trent is to be followed and other commentators rejected?

Yes, the Council of Trent is an EcuŠ¼enical Council. Its decrees and explanations (like the one on "baptism...ad the desire for it") are trustworthy, even when those explanations don't rise to the level of the Extraordinary Magisterium. They are, at the very least, expressions of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

Equally trustworthy are the statements of St. Alphonsus on this matter.

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #156 on: March 23, 2023, 02:26:42 PM »
Quote from: Angelus on March 23, 2023, 02:24:16 PM
How can you ask such a question after saying the following a few posts back?

"If BOD'ers would simply try to explain it ONLY using Trent's words, I think the theory would be drastically different than is understood today.  Most of them have never read the entire section on justification so they don't even know how Trent defines it."

So I then, "explain it ONLY using Trent's words" and you ask me if Trent is to be followed and other commentators rejected?

Yes, the Council of Trent is an EcuŠ¼enical Council. Its decrees and explanations (like the one on "baptism...ad the desire for it") are trustworthy, even when those explanations don't rise to the level of the Extraordinary Magisterium. They are, at the very least, expressions of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

Equally trustworthy are the statements of St. Alphonsus on this matter.

You need to stop posting, because you're only discrediting the BoD position with your ignorance.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #157 on: March 23, 2023, 02:28:36 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 23, 2023, 02:21:35 PM
:facepalm:  Papal Magisterium outweighs any opinion of a Doctor of the Church.  He's only a Doctor because some Pope designated him a Doctor.  And you're trying to lecture us condescendingly about needing to understand the Magisterium?  So a single Pope's opinion is not infallible but that of a Doctor is?  But you have a conundrum, because this Doctor of the Church declared that a similar letter by Pope Innocent II was infallible.  Or maybe the Pope was not infallible in making St. Alphonsus a Doctor of the Church.  What a hot mess.

But even you would have to recognize that the Council of Trent trumps a Doctor of the Church, and the teaching is clear.

There's no initial justification without rebirth/regeneration.

Rebirth/regeneration puts the soul into a state that it would enter heaven immediately and without delay, without any stain or punishment due to sin remaining.

Apart from that, St. Alphonsus has zero proof for his assertion that BoD does not remit temporal punishment do to sin.  That's merely his speculation ... and it's clearly wrong when compared against the teaching of the Council of Trent.  But perhaps you'll claim now that St. Alphonsus trumps the Council of Trent too.

So the papal Magisterium of Pope Innocent is binding on me and on St. Alphonsus. But apparently that same exact statement by Pope Innocent is not binding on Ladislaus? How's that again?
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Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #158 on: March 23, 2023, 02:32:31 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 23, 2023, 02:26:42 PM
You need to stop posting, because you're only discrediting the BoD position with your ignorance.

Thank you for the indult. I think I'll pass. Still waiting for you to admit the contradictions in your recent statements on this thread. Is Pope Innocent's statement, quoted by you, infallible or not? Does disagreement with Pope Innocent's statement make one a heretic?

Finally, do you agree or disagree with Pope Innocent's teaching that BoD itself is Catholic teaching?
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #159 on: March 23, 2023, 03:00:18 PM »
Angelus, you are proving that what you believe about BOD is different from the other BOD posters (just on this thread).  Some follow St Thomas, or St Augustine, or St Bellarmine, or Rheims, etc.  There is no consistent view on how BOD works.  That's the ultimate issue.  
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