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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64605 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2023, 08:05:48 AM »
If I believed in BoD, I would have to concur with Innocent III that it remits temporal punishment due to sin also.

There can be no entry into the Kingdom of Heaven without being born again.  Rebirth clearly means regeneration (where the entire creature is renewed), and Trent taught that initial justification is a regeneration and then that regeneration entails complete remission of all sin and of all punishment due to sin.

This made-up theory that BoD doesn't remit temporal punishment due to sin is highly problematic.

This here is an extremely solid argument that I can find no fault with, except that it doesn't refute BoD per se, but does clearly refute the notion of BoD that holds temporal punishment is not remitted by it:
[VATICAN CATHOLIC DOT COM]/man-must-regenerated-refutes-baptism-desire/

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2023, 08:12:38 AM »
These two passages from Trent cited by the Dimond Brothers completely destroy the notion that there can be [initial] justification without remission of all punishment due to sin:

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Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 3: “But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, SO UNLESS THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST THEY WOULD NEVER BE JUSTIFIED, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”

Council of Trent, Sess. 5, Original Sin, # 5: “If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema.  FOR, IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.”

Simple syllogism.  Initial Justification (vs. justification of the fallen in Confession) requires being born again.  Being born again means that there is nothing in someone that God hates so much so that "nothing may delay them from entry into heaven" (echoing Innocent III here)


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2023, 09:10:52 AM »
If BOD'ers would simply try to explain it ONLY using Trent's words, I think the theory would be drastically different than is understood today.  Most of them have never read the entire section on justification so they don't even know how Trent defines it.  

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #138 on: March 23, 2023, 09:19:50 AM »
Then you need to write better, because you conflated your obsession with the Roman Catechism with St. Peter Canisius, even though there's currently no known link between the two ... not unlike when you tried to conflate the Rheims comment with the Catechism.

You read what you what to see in the text you're reading. It's of a piece with your reducing the argument of your opponent to the straw man caricature you have in your mind of any position that is somewhat similar to his. 

Here's what I said:


Quote
Can you cite a text where St. Peter Canisius "ruled out" salvation for catechumens who died before baptism, which is what those who read the Catechism in favor of BOD argue?

You even quoted it in your response to it in post #117. It refers to the reading of the Catechism by others:facepalm:


Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #139 on: March 23, 2023, 09:46:59 AM »
That would seem to be a valid fourth explanation.  Can you point to any Catholic sources that explain that some of what a council publishes on doctrine is not infallible, and that the other infallible parts are protected from being misunderstood by anyone?
This explanation doesn't work either. It has to presume St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus Liguori, and the rest only read the explanations, and didn't read the canons/anathemas, which is absurd.  Even if it was true that the Council's explanations aren't protected from being misunderstood, but its canons/anathemas are, those saints and theologians obviously didn't understand those canons/anathemas as being contrary to BOD.  If those canons/anathemas are clearly contrary to BOD and guaranteed from being misunderstood, then St. Robert, St. Alphonsus, and the rest still misunderstood what is guaranteed from being misunderstood.