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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64604 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #130 on: March 23, 2023, 07:46:45 AM »
Instead of addressing the intellect, you attacked the will, immediately calling me dishonest.  I obviously don't post here often, but I occasionally spend time reading the discussions, and I've noticed you consistently attribute ill will to those who write something you disagree with.

You've noticed. 

But he also will attach the intellect with "moronic" etc. if you push against one of his pet positions. 

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #131 on: March 23, 2023, 07:47:10 AM »
It was this letter here, usually cited as evidence in favor of BoD:
There's a good discusson of this letter at ...
[VATICAN  CATHOLIC DOT COM]/pope-innocent-iii-baptism-of-desire/

Ok. 


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #132 on: March 23, 2023, 07:48:38 AM »
I didn't say St. Peter Canisius was writing about the Catechism. Read better.

Then you need to write better, because you conflated your obsession with the Roman Catechism with St. Peter Canisius, even though there's currently no known link between the two ... not unlike when you tried to conflate the Rheims comment with the Catechism.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2023, 07:52:12 AM »
Until you provide evidence for your claims, I guess one could say that your claims are also "fabricated out of thin air."

False.  You laid out this fanciful narrative about temporal punishment due to sin not being remitted by BoD.  Since you made these assertions, you prove them.  I can't and don't have to prove a negative.

Show me a single proof for your made-up narrative about temporal punishment due to sin not being forgiven by BoD.

You won't find any because there isn't any.  This is completely made up out of thin air.

Now, we do know that St. Alphonsus held this opinion, so my criticism of your post is at the same time a criticism of St. Alphonsus.  There is no proof that BoD does not remit temporal punishment due to sin.

I'll find the video from the Dimonds on Trent.  As Our Lord taught, one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless one has been BORN AGAIN.  Rebirth means a complete regeneration (as Trent defines it also), including remission of all temporal punishment due to sin.  Trent makes that clear.  So if there's such a thing as BoD, it must be a rebirth or regenerations, and thus it must remit all temporal punishment due to sin.  This is yet another error made by St. Alphonsus on this matter.  I believe that St. Alphonsus was a bit too enamored of some Jesuits in his day, such as De Lugo, and even grants the latter's opinion regarding the possibility of salvation for infidels as "probable" (their word for "possible") ... though not holding it himself ... just because he had a high opinion of De Lugo.  But De Lugo's opinion was horrible and rejected 1500 years of teaching that explicit knowledge of Christ and the Holy Trinity are necessary for salvation.

Now, this was before the infallibiilty of the OUM had been defined by Vatican I, but if a teaching that was unanimously held and taught by the Fathers, and by all Catholics, for 1500 years is not infallibly taught by the OUM, then there's no such thing as the infallibility of the OUM.  Nobody doubted this teaching for 1500 years until a Franciscan and a few Jesuits came along and complete made up "Rewarder God" theory out of thin air ... so they could get the newly-discovered Native Americans saved somehow.

If it's not OK for us to reject BoD on the grounds that nearly all theologians have held it for the last 400 years, then why is it OK for these guys to come along and reject 1500 years of teaching to the contrary of their opinion?

Also, the Holy Office upheld the teaching that knowledge of the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation are necessary by necessity of means for salvation.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2023, 07:55:09 AM »
Until you provide evidence for your claims, I guess one could say that your claims are also "fabricated out of thin air."

1. Show us where it says that "justification...entails the complete remission of all temporal punishment for sin" in Trent.

2. Show us where "one of the Popes" stated exactly what you claim.

3. Show us where it is "heretical" to say that BOD could require expiation of temporal debt in Purgatory.

Otherwise, someone might say that you just "made this up" and say of your comments: "this is a mess."

I've already cited the teaching from Innocent III that BoDers constantly throw out there a proof for BoD.  As for Trent, that's been dealt with repeatedly and I'm not going to reiterate it more than I restated it above there.