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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64627 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2023, 04:05:48 PM »

I'll quote the Rheims annotation of  John 3:5 again:


If God "accepts them as baptized," and they are saved, then baptism retains its necessity.



Here's the same idea from Orestes Brownson:

Quote
It is evident, both from Bellarmine and Billuart, that no one can be saved unless he belongs to the visible communion of the Church, either actually or virtually, and also that the salvation of catechumens can be asserted only because they do so belong ; that is, because they are in the vestibule, for the purpose of entering,  have already entered in their will and proximate disposition. St. Thomas teaches with regard to these, in case they have faith working by love, that all they lack is the reception of the visible sacrament in re ; but if they are prevented by death from receiving it in re before the Church is ready to administer it, that God supplies the defect, accepts the will for the deed, and reputes them to be baptized. If the defect is supplied, and God reputes them to be baptized, they are so in effect, have in effect received the visible sacrament, are truly members of the external communion of the Church, and therefore are saved in it, not out of it. *(footnote: * Summa 3, Q. G8, a. 2. corp. ad 2. et ad 3.)


Bellarmine, Billuart, Perrone, &c, in speaking of persons as belonging to the soul and not to the body, mean, it is evident, not persons who in no sense belong to the body, but simply those who, though they in effect belong to it, do not belong to it in the full and strict sense of the word, because they have not received the visible sacrament in re. All they teach is simply that persons may be saved who have not received the visible sacrament in re ; but they by no means teach that persons can be saved without having received the visible sacrament at all. There is no difference between their view and ours, for we have never contended for any thing more than this ; only we think, that, in these times especially, when the tendency is to depreciate the external, it is more proper to speak of them as belonging in effect to the body, as they certainly do, than it is to speak of them simply as belonging to the soul; for the fact the most important to be insisted on is, not that it is possible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament in re, but that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament at least in voto et proximo, disposition.

http://orestesbrownson.org/210.html


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2023, 04:07:39 PM »
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Whereby the *Pelagians, and Calvinists be condemned, that promise life everlasting to young children that die without baptism, and all other that think only their faith to serve, or the external element of water superfluous or not necessary: our Saviour's words being plain and general.
So here, Rheims correctly upholds Catholic dogma and says that water is absolutely necessary.

Quote
Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament,
Then Rheims contradicts himself and Trent by this statement, which is totally false.  God has, and does, bind his graces to sacraments.  Trent and Scripture infallibly tell us this.

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may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remediless necessity could not obtain it. Lastly, it is proved that this Sacrament giveth grace ex opere operator, that is, of the work itself (which all Protestants deny) because it so breedeth our spiritual life in God, as our carnal birth giveth the life of the world.
If one reads the Church Fathers on baptism of blood, they consistently say that those who die for the Faith, are baptized by their own blood (and the angels baptize say the form and the blood takes the place of water as the matter of the sacrament).  "Baptism of blood" is nothing more than being "baptized by blood".  In other words, the Church Fathers understood BoB = baptism.  It was actual baptism.  It was a sacrament. 

The comments on "desire" being "accepted as baptized" is unsupported by the Church Fathers and Trent.  It's a theory, and arguably heretical because Trent tells us water is necessary.



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2023, 04:09:02 PM »

Can you cite a text where St. Peter Canisius "ruled out" salvation for catechumens who died before baptism, which is what those who read the Catechism in favor of BOD argue?

He wasn't writing about the Catechism.  He was writing IN his catechism about Trent itself.  He cited Trent that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for adults and then made two citations in the footnote, and both the passages were explicit statements from the Church Fathers that even good catechumens who died without the Sacrament of Baptism cannot be saved.

10:45 - 12:00

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2023, 04:25:30 PM »

Here's the same idea from Orestes Brownson:

So?  You can keep citing pro-BoD sources.  No amount of consensus will change the fact that Baptism of Desire is nothing but theological speculation that has been permitted and tolerated (wrongly IMO) by the Church.  BoD has not been revealed by God.

There are only two ways to discern whether something has been revealed, and BoD is an epic fail on both counts:

1) unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers -- yet only 2 Fathers (arguably and temporarily) floated the opinion, even while admitting it was speculation, whereas 5-6 Fathers explicitly rejected it.  No Church Father ever taught that BoD is doctrine received from the Apostles and taught it with authority.

2) when a truth derives logically and necessarily from revealed premises (where it's said to have been implicitly revealed) -- No such demonstration has ever been made.  Nearly every single theologian simply SAYS there's BoD but none of them ever prove it.  We have one alleged Scriptural "proof" offered, that of the good thief ... except the little detail that the Good Thief died in the Old Dispensation before the Sacrament was made obligatory after Our Lord's Resurrection.  St. Robert Bellarmine went with the opinion because the contrary "would seem too harsh" (the same theology held by 99% of all proponents of BoD, emotional wishful thinking).  St. Thomas made the only attempt to demonstrate it by syllogism, but it proved nothing.  He cited that the Sacraments have a visible and an invisible aspect, and then just stated that Baptism's invisible effects can be received by BoD.  CAN be and ARE ... these are two separate things.  No, the character, one of the two essential graces of the Sacrament, CANNOT be received invisibly.  God does not make "priests by desire" and confer Holy Orders that way.  There's an aspect of the Sacrament of Baptism that cannot be had without the visible reception of the Sacrament, so this proves nothing.  That's IT that I've seen by way of theological proof. 

Remaining theologians all rely on "Augustine and Ambrose" ... in ignorance.  St. Augustine temporarily floated the idea, admitting it was speculation, and that he went back and forth about it, and then retracted it later in life, issuing some of the most anti-BoD statements in existence at the end of his life.  St. Ambrose was speaking about a washing without crowning, but elsewhere he stated that even pious catechumens could not be saved if they died before actually receiving the Sacrament, so I submit that this Valentinian passage has been universally misinterpreted.  And what are the 5-6 Fathers who openly rejected BoD?  Chopped liver?  Most modern theologians just say, "Yup.  BoD".  "BoD".  Zero theological proof anywhere for this nonsense.

So there's no evidence anywhere proving BoD.  Consequently, it's nothing but sheer speculation (as admitted by Augustine).

On the contrary, the pernicious fruits of BoD are on display for all to see.  It's been used to absolutely gut EENS dogma, and if a concept of BoD had been condemned and not permitted, we could NOT have had Vatican II and the decay / corruption we see today.  Period.  This is why God allowed it, as a testing of the faith, and as the means by which He would introduce this final test of faith in the end times in which we live.

Offline Angelus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2023, 04:35:46 PM »

Thus, water baptism is necessary for salvation.  BOD just provides grace/justification. 
Yes, and the key difference is the following:

Water Baptism = The Sacrament of Baptism = Salvation (when one perseveres in state of justification until death)
vs.
BOD = extra-Sacramental repentance/cleansing = Justification (when one perseveres in that state until death)

The Sacrament of Baptism provides forgiveness of ALL past sins AS WELL AS the remission of ALL TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT for those sins.

BOD provides forgiveness of all past sins, but DOES NOT provide remission of temporal punishment for those sins. 

So, a person receiving the Sacrament of Baptism and not committing another sin before his death, goes straight to Heaven. A person "receiving" BOD and not committing another sin before his death, goes, at best, to Purgatory because he still has to pay off his debt for his sins committed prior to "receiving" BOD. Both people, ultimately, make it to Heaven. But one just takes the detour to Purgatory first.

Therefore, "salvation" means complete avoidance of any kind of Purgatory (salvation from the fires of Hell). It is only possible for a Catholic with the assistance of the Sacraments to have the hope that they can avoid Purgatory.

Justification means the state of righteousness (potentially just momentary) that, if persevered in until death, will be good enough to get a person at least into Purgatory but never straight to Heaven.

An unjustified person goes to Hell. 

Said another way: 

Saved (Sacramentally-cleansed, state of grace, and no temporal debt) = Heaven-bound
Merely Justified (state of grace but temporal debt still remaining) = Purgatory-bound
Unjustified (state of mortal sin) = Hell-bound