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Author Topic: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire  (Read 64640 times)

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2023, 03:52:08 PM »
The explanations of a council are not infallible.  The explanations of a council are not "decrees" or "doctrine".  Only the Canons/anathemas are infallible.

So, no, a council's decrees/canons/anathemas are doctrine and cannot be misunderstood but must be read literally and simply.  That's how they are written.

But, yes, a council's explanations can be misunderstood because these are not necessarily totally correct, or totally explained, or fully proven.  BOD is not a doctrine, or anathematized, or infallible.  It was part of an explanation and it was mentioned in passing.  There was not even 1 single sentence dedicated to the idea.  To say it was "unexplained" is a colossal understatement.  In the grand context of the council it was a blink-and-you'll-miss-it idea.
That would seem to be a valid fourth explanation.  Can you point to any Catholic sources that explain that some of what a council publishes on doctrine is not infallible, and that the other infallible parts are protected from being misunderstood by anyone? 

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2023, 03:56:31 PM »
CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.


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Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remediless necessity could not obtain it. Lastly, it is proved that this Sacrament giveth grace ex opere operator, that is, of the work itself (which all Protestants deny) because it so breedeth our spiritual life in God, as our carnal birth giveth the life of the world.
Rheims contradicts himself, and Trent's canon.  He says water is necessary, then says it's not.



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If God "accepts them as baptized," and they are saved, then baptism retains its necessity.
Trent does not support this ideal.  In fact, it condemns it, by stating that 1) baptism is necessary and 2) water is essential to baptism.


Thus, water baptism is necessary for salvation.  BOD just provides grace/justification.  


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2023, 03:57:42 PM »

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Can you point to any Catholic sources that explain that some of what a council publishes on doctrine is not infallible, and that the other infallible parts are protected from being misunderstood by anyone? 
Yes.  Have to dig these up.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2023, 04:02:54 PM »
Thank you for your kind words.

If by "strawman" you mean incompetency isn't the only explanation, I agree.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean, but in your argument you were making the assertion that if one did not agree with St. Alphonsus' interpretation of Trent (but that of St. Peter Canisius, who was actually at the Council and spoke at it), this means that (we hold that) St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus were "incompetent dimwits".  That's a strawman in your attribution of this to us, and idiotic in that you make this absurd false dichotomy where if you're not 100% correct about everything, that must mean you're an "incompetent dimwit".

That's as dishonest as it is idiotic.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Catechism of the Council of Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2023, 04:05:18 PM »
Here's where Bellarmine, Ligouri, etc were wrong, and it's not due to incompetence or maliciousness, but inexperience.  Not theological inexperience, nor lack of sanctity, nor lack of IQ...what they were missing is chaos, spiritual warfare, and human degeneracy.  They were missing the "real life" application of this BOD concept.

That's certainly one aspect of BoD.  During a time when EENS was not under fire (although it was starting under St. Alphonsus), one doesn't see clearly where people would end up going with this speculation ... using it to gut all of Catholic dogma, the culmination of which we see today with Wojtyla at Assisi.  I wonder what St. Alphonsus would have thought about that spectacle.