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Author Topic: THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY  (Read 6170 times)

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Offline CM

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THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2009, 05:59:43 PM »
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    • Very good.
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    Offline SJB

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #31 on: October 04, 2009, 09:29:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: SJB
    Can one be inculpably ignorant of a particular law? The concept is hardly "novel".


    I have posted this quote from Saint Thomas over and over.  Please read it:

    "Unbelief may be taken in two ways: first, by way of pure negation, so that a man be called an unbeliever, merely because he has not the faith. Secondly, unbelief may be taken by way of opposition to the faith; in which sense a man refuses to hear the faith, or despises it, according to Isaiah 53:1: "Who hath believed our report?" It is this that completes the notion of unbelief, and it is in this sense that unbelief is a sin.

    If, however, we take it by way of pure negation, as we find it in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character, not of sin, but of punishment, because such like ignorance of Divine things is a result of the sin of our first parent. If such like unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without faith, but not on account of their sin of unbelief. Hence Our Lord said (John 15:22) "If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin"; which Augustine expounds (Tract. lxxxix in Joan.) as "referring to the sin whereby they believed not in Christ." " (Summa Theologica II II Q.10, A.1)


    I don't follow you. Supernatural Faith is required at all times and by all men. That is de fide. We are not talking about unbelievers.
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    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Jehanne

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #32 on: October 05, 2009, 07:52:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: SJB
    Can one be inculpably ignorant of a particular law? The concept is hardly "novel".


    I have posted this quote from Saint Thomas over and over.  Please read it:

    "Unbelief may be taken in two ways: first, by way of pure negation, so that a man be called an unbeliever, merely because he has not the faith. Secondly, unbelief may be taken by way of opposition to the faith; in which sense a man refuses to hear the faith, or despises it, according to Isaiah 53:1: "Who hath believed our report?" It is this that completes the notion of unbelief, and it is in this sense that unbelief is a sin.

    If, however, we take it by way of pure negation, as we find it in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character, not of sin, but of punishment, because such like ignorance of Divine things is a result of the sin of our first parent. If such like unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without faith, but not on account of their sin of unbelief. Hence Our Lord said (John 15:22) "If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin"; which Augustine expounds (Tract. lxxxix in Joan.) as "referring to the sin whereby they believed not in Christ." " (Summa Theologica II II Q.10, A.1)


    I don't follow you. Supernatural Faith is required at all times and by all men. That is de fide. We are not talking about unbelievers.


    Explicit faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the One and Only Son of God, Creator of all visible and invisible, is required of all!  This is de fide catholica.  Buddhists, Jєωs, and Muslims do not have this, which is why they will all end-up in hell, unless, "before the end of life," they come into faith with Jesus Christ and are joined to His Mystical Body, which is the Holy Roman and Apostolic Catholic Church.  We can hope for salutary repentance for them, but this is only a theological possibility, not a certainty.
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    Offline Belloc

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #33 on: October 05, 2009, 08:02:58 AM »
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    • Jesus said (DRBO.org is not working) that no one goes to the Father, but by Him.......finite....

    back to you Pope CM......
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    Offline Jehanne

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #34 on: October 05, 2009, 09:46:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Belloc
    Jesus said (DRBO.org is not working) that no one goes to the Father, but by Him.......finite....

    back to you Pope CM......


    My and CM's views are pretty close.    Bod and BoB apply only to catechumens, and no one else.  This is the immemorial faith of the Church.
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    Offline SJB

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #35 on: October 05, 2009, 10:10:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Belloc
    Jesus said (DRBO.org is not working) that no one goes to the Father, but by Him.......finite....

    back to you Pope CM......


    My and CM's views are pretty close.    Bod and BoB apply only to catechumens, and no one else.  This is the immemorial faith of the Church.


    Then sacramental Baptism is NOT absolutely required for salvation. Supernatural Faith and Charity are sufficient in some cases.

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    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline CM

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #36 on: October 05, 2009, 10:38:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Belloc
    back to you Pope CM......


    Hey........did you makle that one uiop.........all by yourslef?

    Quote
    Then sacramental Baptism is NOT absolutely required for salvation. Supernatural Faith and Charity are sufficient in some cases.


    Show me the dogmatic definition that supports this view, and be prepared to answer questions about it.

    And if you don't or can't, then know that you are inventing your own 'dogma' outside of the Solemn Magisterium.
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    Offline Belloc

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #37 on: October 05, 2009, 10:53:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    Quote from: Belloc
    back to you Pope CM......


    Hey........did you makle that one uiop.........all by yourslef?.


    I can be in rare form your Holiness....... :roll-laugh2:
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    Offline Belloc

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #38 on: October 05, 2009, 10:55:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Belloc
    Jesus said (DRBO.org is not working) that no one goes to the Father, but by Him.......finite....

    back to you Pope CM......


    My and CM's views are pretty close.    Bod and BoB apply only to catechumens, and no one else.  This is the immemorial faith of the Church.


    So, you both agree on the Baptism issues-how about the sede issues?
    Do we havea valid Pope now?
    if not, who was last one?
    how do we get another?
    are we all damned here at CI that do not hold CM's views (he has intimated as much, how abouts you??)
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    Offline Belloc

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #39 on: October 05, 2009, 10:56:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    Quote from: Belloc
    back to you Pope CM......


    Hey........did you makle that one uiop.........all by yourslef?

    Quote
    Then sacramental Baptism is NOT absolutely required for salvation. Supernatural Faith and Charity are sufficient in some cases.


    Show me the dogmatic definition that supports this view, and be prepared to answer questions about it.

    And if you don't or can't, then know that you are inventing your own 'dogma' outside of the Solemn Magisterium.


    actually answered many times over-you do not beleive, so no reason to go int that again....(note, there is no biblical proof that the 40th martyr on the lake was water baptized with trinitarian formula, no Mary Magdalene, no the thief on cross...)
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    Offline Belloc

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #40 on: October 05, 2009, 10:57:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    There is NO supernatural Faith outside of the Church.  This is bestowed IN BAPTISM.  Don't make me drag out all the quotes from Trent.


    Would not one have to have faith and intellect both to be drawn to the Church to then, in turn, get the baptism?????
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    Offline Belloc

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #41 on: October 05, 2009, 10:58:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    There is NO supernatural Faith outside of the Church.


    Kind of like how there was NO supernatural Faith outside of the OT ѕуηαgσgυє?

    Job ringing any bells?


    good points........Gladius, you are one Sede that can at least make a good point or generate some validity for your position...
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    Offline Belloc

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #42 on: October 05, 2009, 11:00:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jehanne
    Oh, and to make my position absolutely clear, I think that Pius XII was a heretic.


    um......uh huh.......ok.......
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    Offline Belloc

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #43 on: October 05, 2009, 11:03:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: SJB
    So you're not a hard core feeneyite. And the sacrament of Baptism is NOT REQUIRED in EVERY case. Catechumens are NOT yet recieved the Sacrament.


    No, but the vow is.  Show me otherwise, and I will believe.


    Doesn't matter. The "vow" is implicit anyway. The point is that THE SACRAMENT of BAPTISM is not NOT required in EVERY case. Do you now admit this?


    This is heresy, and if you had lived during the Middle Ages and said this, they would have burned you.  A vow cannot be implicit, it cannot be unconscious.  There are no "anonymous Christians," only Christians and non-Christians.  From the Council of Trent:

    Canon 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema.






    it is not optional, but at times, cannot be administered.....there are always exceptions beyond a persons means......

    you know, the cut and paste job is like Prots, they thump the bible and say "thats what it says, thats what it means" without going any further....very anti-intellectual and much closer to Prot-ism this Sedeism...

    What Trent is saying is some were saying it is optional,therefore, will not get it or wait until it suits me....this was opinion of anabaptists and some others....did not mean those who would not help it.....again, Trent did not teach some form of double Predestination.........
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    Offline Belloc

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    THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY
    « Reply #44 on: October 05, 2009, 11:06:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    "Jehanne" sorta looks like a girls name.  Sounds like it too "Jan", "Jean" whatever.

    So, DON, my man, please please please do not answer SJB question in the affirmative.

    Or you will make yourself heretical.


    you likely have already condemned him.........if not, give it time......your first comments are insulting to him....does not prove your sede thesis at all, but is a certain turn off if you are trying to prove something........perhaps we should delve into your real name, background,etc.......

    lets keep to dicussion......I may mock you and use some snide humor, but have not gotten that personal....well,yet.....
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