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Offline Binechi

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The Best Argument Against the Theory of Bod
« on: July 12, 2016, 01:20:46 PM »
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  • ARGUMENT AGAINST “BAPTISM OF DESIRE”

    BRO. PETER DIMOND

     POINT 1 – THE GRACE CONFERRED BY THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM IS DOGMATICALLY DEFINED TO BE: • A GRACE THAT REMITS EVERY SIN AND ALL THE TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT DUE TO SIN • IT IS A GRACE THAT LEAVES A PERSON IN A STATE IN WHICH HE WOULD GO IMMEDIATELY TO HEAVEN IF DYING AFTER HAVING RECEIVED IT

     The grace of Baptism, which completely regenerates the soul, is also called regeneration or being ‘born again’. The effect of this grace is the remission of every sin and all temporal punishment due to sin (de fide definita: see Florence and Trent below). Since the grace of Baptism not only remits all sin, but also all the temporal punishment due to sin, thus making the person a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 4:24), it’s certain that someone who would die immediately after receiving the grace of Baptism would go straight to Heaven. Someone dying in that state would not need to go to Purgatory or suffer any punishment for past sins. That was explicitly defined by the Councils of Florence and Trent.

     Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life… The effect of this sacrament is the remission of every fault, original and actual, and also of every punishment which is owed for the fault itself. Therefore to the baptized no satisfaction is to be enjoined for past sins; but dying, before they commit any fault, they immediately (statim) attain the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God.”

    Latin -“… sanctum baptisma, quod vitae spiritualis ianua est… Huius sacramenti effectus est remissio omnis culpae originalis et actualis, omnis quoque poenae, quae pro ipsa culpa debetur. Propterea baptizatis nulla pro peccatis praeteritis iniungenda est satisfactio: sed morientes antequam culpam aliquam committant, statim ad regnum coelorum et Dei visionem perveniunt.”

    Council of Trent, Sess. 5, Original Sin, # 5, ex cathedra: “If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. FOR, IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.”

    As we can see, the Council of Florence declares that the grace of Baptism takes away all sin and all punishment due to sin, with the result that a person dying in such a state would immediately go to Heaven. He would not have to suffer at all for past sins.
     Similarly, the Council of Trent’s Decree on Original Sin defines that all those who are ‘born again’ have all the guilt and all punishment due to sin remitted. This grace of being ‘born again’, which is conferred in Baptism, renders the recipients “immaculate”. After receiving this grace, they are in a state in which absolutely nothing could retard or delay their entrance into Heaven.
     THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.”

    As we can see, the Council of Florence declares that the grace of Baptism takes away all sin and all punishment due to sin, with the result that a person dying in such a state would immediately go to Heaven. He would not have to suffer at all for past sins.
     Similarly, the Council of Trent’s Decree on Original Sin defines that all those who are ‘born again’ have all the guilt and all punishment due to sin remitted. This grace of being ‘born again’, which is conferred in Baptism, renders the recipients “immaculate”. After receiving this grace, they are in a state in which absolutely nothing could retard or delay their entrance into Heaven.

     POINT 2 – ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE,’ AS DEFINED BY THEOLOGIANS WHO TAUGHT IT: • DOES NOT REMOVE THE TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT DUE TO SIN • DOES NOT LEAVE A PERSON IN A STATE IN WHICH HE WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN IF HE DIED • AND THEREFORE DOES NOT GRANT THE GRACE OF REGENERATION/BAPTISM/BEING ‘BORN AGAIN’

    In attempting to explain the idea of ‘baptism of desire’ (which the Magisterium has never taught), St. Thomas Aquinas taught that the unbaptized catechumen who dies with the so-called ‘baptism of desire’ might still need to suffer punishment for past sins (pro peccatis praeteritis). He also explicitly said that such a person does not immediately attain (non statim pervenit) eternal life. But we just showed that it’s a dogma that the grace of Baptism leaves a person in a state in which he would go immediately (statim) to Heaven and would certainly not need to suffer any punishment for past sins. It’s a fact, therefore, that according to St. Thomas’ teaching, ‘baptism of desire’ does not grant the grace of the Sacrament of Baptism. Indeed, notice the amazing specificity with which St. Thomas’ statement about the so-called ‘baptism of desire’ directly contradicts the Council of Florence’s dogmatic teaching on the effect or grace of Baptism. The specificity of the contradiction in the original Latin is striking: it’s basically word for word. I will provide a summary of that contradiction below.
     St. Thomas Aquinas On ‘Baptism of Desire’ VS. Pope Eugene IV (at Florence) Defining the Grace of Baptism
     Latin- “Si quis ergo catechumenus sit habens desiderium Baptismi… decedens non statim pervenit ad vitam aeternam, sed patietur poenam pro peccatis praeteritis, ipse tamen salvus erit sic quasi per ignem, ut dicitur I Cor. III.”     St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Pt. III, Q. 68, A. 2, Reply to Obj. 2: “If therefore a catechumen has the desire for baptism… then such a one departing [or dying] does not immediately attain eternal life but will suffer punishment for past sins. Nevertheless he himself will be saved in this way as though through fire, as stated in 1 Cor. III.”     Latin -“… sanctum baptisma, quod vitae spiritualis ianua est… Huius sacramenti effectus est remissio omnis culpae originalis et actualis, omnis quoque poenae, quae pro ipsa culpa debetur. Propterea baptizatis nulla pro peccatis praeteritis iniungenda est satisfactio: sed morientes antequam culpam aliquam committant, statim ad regnum coelorum et Dei visionem perveniunt.”     Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life… The effect of this sacrament is the remission of every fault, original and actual, and also of every punishment which is owed for the fault itself. Therefore to the baptized no satisfaction is to be enjoined for past sins; but dying, before they commit any fault, they immediately (statim) attain the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God.”

    In Latin, Florence and St. Thomas both use the exact same verb pervenire. That verb means ‘to attain’ or ‘to come through to’.
    Florence used perveniunt, the third person plural of pervenire. Perveniunt means: “they attain”. Florence used perveniunt to declare that the recipients of the grace of Baptism immediately attain eternal life and the vision of God if dying in that state.
     St. Thomas used pervenit, the third person singular of pervenire (the exact same verb Florence used). St. Thomas used pervenit to state that a person dying with the so-called ‘baptism of desire’ does not immediately attain or come through to eternal life.
     In Latin, Florence used statim, which means “immediately”. Florence used statim to declare that the recipient of the grace of Baptism, if dying in that state, immediately (statim) attains the vision of God, without suffering Purgatory or any delay.
     St. Thomas also used statim, the same word Florence used. However, St. Thomas put the word non before it. St. Thomas used the words non statim to emphasize that the person dying with the so-called ‘baptism of desire’ does not immediately (non statim) attain the vision of God without delay.
     In Latin, Florence used the words pro peccatis praeteritis. Pro peccatis praeteritis means “for past sins”. Florence used pro peccatis praeteritis to declare that the recipient of the grace of Baptism, having been completely reborn and renewed, does not need to make any satisfaction or suffer any punishment for past sins. Such a person would go straight to Heaven if dying in that state.
     St. Thomas also used pro peccatis praeteritis, the exact same words used by Florence. However, St. Thomas used the words pro peccatis praeteritis to state that the person dying with the so-called ‘baptism of desire’ will have to suffer punishment (patietur poenam) for past sins.
     It is beyond all dispute: St. Thomas taught that the so-called ‘baptism of desire’ DOES NOT confer the grace of the Sacrament of Baptism. His teaching on what ‘baptism of desire’ supposedly confers is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what the Council of Florence and the Catholic Church declare the grace of Baptism to be. St. Thomas’ explanation of the supposed ‘baptism of desire’ contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church on the grace of Baptism basically word for word. (Keep in mind that St. Thomas’ teaching is not infallible, while the teaching of the Magisterium is infallible.) The amazing specificity with which St. Thomas’ explanation of ‘baptism of desire’ contradicts Catholic teaching on the grace of Baptism is not just a coincidence. It was providential: God allowed the contradiction to be direct, and basically word for word, to demonstrate that the alleged ‘grace’ being put forward in theories for ‘baptism of desire’ is not the grace of Baptism. And therein lies its fatal flaw, as we will see.

     ST. ALPHONSUS, FOLLOWING ST. THOMAS, ALSO TAUGHT THAT ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ DOES NOT GRANT THE GRACE OF BAPTISM, AND THAT RECIPIENTS OF ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ MIGHT HAVE TO SUFFER FOR PAST SINS

     St. Alphonsus: “Baptism of blowing is perfect conversion to God through contrition or through the love of God above all things, with the explicit desire, or implicit desire of the true river of baptism whose place it supplies (iuxta Trid. Sess. 14, c. 4) with respect to the remission of the guilt, but not with respect to the character to be imprinted, nor with respect to the full liability of the punishment to be removed: it is called of blowing because it is made through the impulse of the Holy Spirit, who is called a blowing.” (St. Alphonsus, Moral Theology, Volume V, Book 6, n. 96)

     Latin- “Baptismus flaminis est perfecta conversio ad Deum per contritionem, vel amorem Dei super omnia, cuм voto explicito, vel implicito, veri baptismi fluminis, cujus vicem supplet (iuxta Trid. Sess. 14, c. 4) quoad culpae remissionem, non autem quoad characterem imprimendum, nec quoad tollendum omnem reatum poenae: dicitur flaminis, quia fit per impulsum Spiritus Sancti, qui flamen nuncupatur.”

    Notice, according to St. Alphonsus, the so-called baptism of desire does not remove the temporal punishment due to sin. Like St. Thomas, he held that someone who died with baptism of desire might have to go to Purgatory. According to him, ‘baptism of desire’ does not grant the grace of Baptism or spiritual rebirth.

     LATER THEOLOGIANS, FOLLOWING THE AFOREMENTIONED MAN-MADE EXPLANATION OF ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’, CONSISTENTLY TAUGHT THAT ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ DOES NOT GRANT THE GRACE OF BAPTISM OR REGENERATION • THEY THEREFORE TAUGHT THAT RECIPIENTS OF ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ MIGHT HAVE TO SUFFER FOR PAST SINS
     Following previous explanations of the theory, later theologians who accepted ‘baptism of desire’ also taught that it does not remit the temporal punishment due to sin. That proves that, according to their teaching, ‘baptism of desire’ DOES NOT confer the grace of Baptism/regeneration.

     Adolphe Tanquerey (d. 1932), A Manual of Dogmatic Theology. Vol. II., New York: Desclee Company, 1959, pp. 227-229: “Perfect charity, together with the desire for Baptism, indeed remits original sin and actual sins, and in like manner infuses sanctifying grace; but it does not imprint the baptismal character, nor of itself does it remit the entire temporal punishment due to sin. Wherefore the obligation remains to receive Baptism of water when the opportunity is given.”

    Fr. Benedict Henry Merkelbach, ‘O.P.’, Summa Theologiæ Moralis, Vol. III, no. 135, #2, 1954: “The Baptism of flame or desire is an act of perfect charity or contrition. It is not a sacrament, because it is not an external sign, and therefore does not imprint the character. Therefore, after such a baptism there remains the obligation of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism. It justifies ex opere operantis, and ordinarily does not remit all punishment for sin.”
    As we’ve shown, a so-called ‘grace’ that does not remit the entire temporal punishment due to sin is not the grace of Baptism/regeneration/rebirth.
     POINT 3 – IT’S A DOGMA (AND THE CLEAR TEACHING OF SCRIPTURE) THAT ONE MUST HAVE THE GRACE OF REGENERATION/BAPTISM/BEING ‘BORN AGAIN’ (WHICH REMITS ALL THE TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT DUE TO SIN) IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIFIED AND SAVED • THIS PROVES, BEYOND ALL DOUBT, THAT ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ (AS DEFINED BY THEOLOGIANS WHO TAUGHT IT) CANNOT JUSTIFY • IT’S A FALSE, MAN-MADE DOCTRINE THAT CONTRADICTS DEFINED DOGMA AND CLEAR SCRIPTURAL TEACHING ON WHAT IS NECESSARY TO BE JUSTIFIED AND SAVED
     The Council of Trent dogmatically defined that one must be born again in order to be justified.
     Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 3: “But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, SO UNLESS THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST THEY WOULD NEVER BE JUSTIFIED, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”
    That means that you cannot even be put into the state of grace without receiving the rebirth of Jesus Christ. And the rebirth, as we’ve shown and the Council of Trent teaches repeatedly, takes away everything: the guilt of sin and all the punishment due to sin.

     Council of Trent, Sess. 5, Original Sin, # 5, ex cathedra: “FOR, IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven.”

    Here are two other interesting statements on the necessity of regeneration (or being born again) for salvation.

     The Catalog or the Authoritative Statements of the Past Bishops of the Holy See Concerning the Grace of God, under Pope St. Celestine: “… Pope INNOCENT of blessed memory proclaimed and said in his letter * to the Council of Carthage:* ‘For he [man], having once braved every consequence of free choice, while he used his goods too unadvisedly, fell and was overwhelmed in the depth of his transgression, and found no way by which he was able to rise from it; and beguiled forever by his own liberty he would have lain prostrate by the weight of this ruin, if the coming of Christ had not afterwards lifted him up by virtue of His grace, who through the purification of a new regeneration washed away in the bath of His baptism every past sin.’” (Denz. 130)

     The Catalog or the Authoritative Statements of the Past Bishops of the Holy See Concerning the Grace of God, under Pope St. Celestine: “The same teacher [Pope Innocent] in the epistle to the council of Mileum * proclaims that no one uses his free will well, except through Christ, asserting: * ‘Note finally, O perverse doctrine of most distorted minds, that liberty itself so deceived the first man, that, while he used his bridle too indulgently, he fell into transgression by presumption. Nor would he have been able to be rescued from this, had not the coming of Christ the Lord reestablished for him the state of pristine liberty by the providence of regeneration.’” (Denz. 133)

     According to the Catholic Church, man cannot be rescued from the state of Adam except “through the purification of a new regeneration” (per novae regenerationis purificationem) and “by the providence of regeneration” (providentia regenerationis). Trent defined this as a dogma.

     THE POSITION THAT ONE CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT REGENERATION (I.E. ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’) ALSO STANDS IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO THE TEACHING OF THE NEW TESTAMENT ON JUSTIFICATION AND SALVATION

     It is the clear teaching of Scripture that man must be regenerated in order to be justified and saved.
     John 3:3-5- “Jesus answered him, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.’ Nicodemus said to him, ‘How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?’ Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’”
    1 John 5:1- “Everyone believing [??? ? ???????? – present participle] that Jesus is the Christ has been born [?????????? – perfect tense verb] of God…”
    This initial regeneration, which one must have to be justified, is a gift from God. It is not the result of our works. That means it can’t be brought about by one’s charity, contrition, desire, shedding of blood, etc., as ‘baptism of desire’ and ‘blood’ posit. In fact, Scripture explicitly teaches that the rebirth one must have is not of man’s will or blood (John 1:13)!

     Titus 3:5- “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.”
    1 Peter 1:3-4- “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.”
    John 1:12-13- “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

    To teach that one can be saved without being reborn, as ‘baptism of desire’ does, is to teach false doctrine. It is to contradict the New Testament and the Church’s dogmatic teaching. As Jesus said: “Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again” (John 3:7).

     THE INSUPERABLE PROBLEM FOR ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’
    Do you see the problem for baptism of desire?
     The Council of Trent dogmatically teaches (based on Scripture and apostolic Tradition) that one cannot even be put into a state of grace without the rebirth in Christ, and the rebirth in Christ removes everything: the guilt of sin and the temporal punishment due to sin.
     But according to the very definition of ‘baptism of desire’ supplied by its most celebrated defenders, and consistently explained by theologians in the 20th century who taught it, it doesn’t provide the grace of rebirth because it doesn’t take away the temporal punishment due to sin.
     Baptism of desire is therefore infallibly false. It must be rejected. It’s a false theory of man. It denies Catholic and scriptural teaching on the absolute necessity of being born again to be saved. That’s why the Church never taught it. When people receive doctrines from God, as infallibly taught by the Church, those doctrines are true and consistent. However, when a theological view is the product of the opinions and speculations of men, as ‘baptism of desire’ was, it will have flaws and inconsistencies. In the case of baptism of desire, which is merely a doctrine of men, not a doctrine of the Church or of God, there is a huge, massive, gaping hole at the heart of the theory. It is the one we have just exposed.

     For the idea of ‘baptism of desire’ to even begin to be in any way consistent with Catholic teaching, it would have to posit that baptism of desire grants the grace of Baptism and rebirth. But it doesn’t teach that, as the explanation of St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and others on the matter proves. God allowed the false idea of baptism of desire to contain this massive problem and inconsistency at its core so that people could eventually see it for what it is: a false doctrine. The facts we’ve considered prove that the theory of baptism of desire is over. It’s false.

     WITH THIS ARGUMENT, QUICKLY END ANY DEBATE ON ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’

    So, here’s how you end any debate on baptism of desire within a minute or two, with one question. When I say “end any debate”, your opponent may indeed stick around spewing falsehood and nonsense; but, once this argument is employed, his core assumptions and arguments will be pulverized, his entire line of argumentation will disappear and will have to be altered, and he will be caught in a fundamental contradiction.
     Simply ask the supporter of baptism of desire the following:

     Question: Does the so-called ‘baptism of desire’ grant the grace of Baptism/spiritual rebirth, yes or no?

     If they don’t know what the grace of Baptism/spiritual rebirth is, explain that according to Catholic teaching, it’s the grace which remits all sin, all punishment due to sin, and leaves a person in a state in which he or she goes straight to Heaven if dying in that state (no Purgatory is necessary). Does baptism of desire give a person that state, yes or no?
     If they choose no, it does not provide the grace of Baptism/spiritual rebirth, but only the state of grace and the remission of the guilt of sin, but not the remission of the temporal punishment due to sin, they’ve just proved that baptism of desire is false and cannot save anyone. That’s because the Council of Trent declared that no one can even be justified (i.e. put into a state of grace) without being born again in Christ (Sess. 6, Chap. 3). In fact, throughout the decree on justification the state of first justification is identified as the state of rebirth or being born again. For example, in Sess. 6, Chap. 4 of Trent, it declares that the transition to justification is not just a transition to the state of grace but to the state of grace and “adoption as sons”, in which a man is reborn. So, by answering “no, baptism of desire does not provide the grace of spiritual rebirth or Baptism”, they’ve just demolished the theory of baptism of desire. They’ve proven that no one could ever be justified or saved by it.

     If, on the other hand, they answer yes, baptism of desire does provide the grace of Baptism/spiritual rebirth, they’ve rejected the entire theory of baptism of desire and proven that it’s false. That’s because baptism of desire is based on the teaching of St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and other theologians. Those theologians teach that ‘baptism of desire’ does not provide the grace of rebirth. In fact, that definition and explanation of the theory is found in fallible theological manuals in the 19th and 20th centuries (as shown above). Supporters of baptism of desire enjoy quoting such books, wrongly believing they are infallible or definitive. But those theologians teach that the so-called baptism of desire does not take away the temporal punishment due to sin, and therefore it does not provide the grace of Baptism or spiritual rebirth. So, by answering “yes, baptism of desire does provide the grace of rebirth”, the supporter of baptism of desire has rejected the teaching of St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, and other theologians on the issue. He has declared their teaching wrong and false. In the process he has repudiated baptism of desire because arguments for baptism of desire are bound to, and based upon, the explanation given by the aforementioned individuals.

     Hence, whether they answer the question with yes or with a no, they prove baptism of desire to be false. That’s because it’s simply a theory of man that was never taught by the Church. It’s inconsistent with itself and it’s inconsistent with Catholic teaching because it’s a false doctrine of man.

     SOME ADDITIONAL POINTS

     It’s interesting to note that the aforementioned theologians (including in theological manuals supporters of BOD like to cite) frequently teach that the so-called baptism of blood (which the Church also never taught) supposedly provides the grace of Baptism or rebirth, while the so-called baptism of desire does not provide that grace.

     Fr. Benedict Henry Merkelbach, ‘O.P.’, Summa Theologiæ Moralis, Vol. III, no. 135, #s 2-3, 1954: “The Baptism of flame or desire is an act of perfect charity or contrition. It is not a sacrament, because it is not an external sign, and therefore does not imprint the character. Therefore, after such a baptism there remains the obligation of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism. It justifies ex opere operantis, and ordinarily does not remit all punishment for sin. 3. The Baptism of blood or martyrdom. It is not a sacrament, because it is not a ceremonial sign or a rite instituted by Christ, which is administered in His name in order that it be an instrument of sanctification. Therefore it does not imprint the character. It justifies in a manner like ex opere operato, not actively but passively, with only imperfect contrition, and in it all the punishment for sin is remitted. It is more eminent than the other two types of baptism since it gives a more perfect conformity with Christ, and therefore God grants a greater grace in it.

     So, according to them, the so-called baptism of blood provides one grace, while the so-called baptism of desire provides a different grace. Where has the Church ever taught any of this? The answer is nowhere. The Church teaches that there’s one baptism of water, which all in the Church have. That one baptism of water, which all in the Church have, is what must be faithfully confessed by all (Council of Vienne).

     Pope Clement V, The Council of Vienne, 1311-1312: “Besides, only one baptism regenerating all who are baptized in Christ must be faithfully confessed by all just as ‘one God and one faith’ [Eph. 4:5], which celebrated in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit we believe to be the perfect remedy for salvation for both adults and children.”

    Latin- “Ad hoc baptisma unicuм baptizatos omnes in Christo regenerans est, sicut unus Deus ac fides unica ab omnibus fideliter confitendum, quod celebratum in aqua in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti credimus esse tam adultis quam parvulis communiter perfectum remedium ad salutem.”

    Pope Clement V, The Council of Vienne, 1311-1312: “But since one is the universal Church, of regulars and seculars, of prelates and subjects, of exempt and non-exempt, outside of which absolutely (omnino) no one (nullus) is saved, one is the Lord, one is the Faith and one is the baptism of all.”

    Also notice that in the first dogmatic passage above, the Council declares that this “one baptism” is “regenerating” (regenerans) all “baptized in Christ”. This is even more dogmatic proof that one must be regenerated to have the “one baptism”. A person must be regenerated to be in the unity of the Church and be saved. That further refutes ‘baptism of desire’, for ‘baptism of desire’ does not regenerate. Vienne’s proclamation demonstrates that only a baptism that regenerates is identified with the one baptism of Christ. Since ‘baptism of desire’ does not regenerate, it cannot be part of, or a kind of, the one baptism that all Christians have (Eph. 4:5). So much for the “three forms of the one baptism” argument. ‘Baptism of desire’ not only lacks the sacramental character of the one baptism of Christ; it lacks the very grace of the one baptism of Christ (regeneration).

     It is also not “celebrated in water”, as the baptism of all baptized in Christ is celebrated. It is not compatible with the one baptism that all in the Church have.
     When attempting to explain these false theories, theologians also contradict themselves within a few paragraphs. For example, if you read a fallible theological manual promoting these notions, in one paragraph they will tell you that the effect or grace of Baptism can be obtained without water baptism by baptism of blood and desire. But wait a second: they don’t believe that the so-called baptism of desire provides anyone with the grace of Baptism or rebirth because it doesn’t provide the remission of the temporal punishment due to sin, as we’ve shown. Nevertheless, oblivious to the details and facts of their own position, they will sometimes state that it does provide the grace of Baptism, but a few paragraphs later they will contradict themselves and acknowledge that it does not provide the grace of Baptism or rebirth because it does not take away the temporal punishment due to sin. They don’t even recognize the massive contradiction in their argument. That’s what happens when people attempt to defend and promote false doctrines never taught by the Church but only by fallible men.

     THE AUTHORITY OF THE MAGISTERIUM MUST BE FOLLOWED, NOT THEOLOGIANS, SAINTS OR DOCTORS WHEN THEY CONTRADICT IT
     Those who trust in man, even in a saintly man, over the teaching of the Church, always lose. The epic failure of the aforementioned definitions of ‘baptism of desire’ is a powerful example of that fact. God never promised infallibility to all the saints, theologians or doctors of the Church, but to St. Peter and his successors in their authoritative teaching office.
     Luke 22:31-32- “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have all of you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, 1870: “SO, THIS GIFT OF TRUTH AND A NEVER FAILING FAITH WAS DIVINELY CONFERRED UPON PETER AND HIS SUCCESSORS IN THIS CHAIR…”

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, 1870: “… the See of St. Peter always remains unimpaired by any error, according to the divine promise of our Lord the Savior made to the chief of His disciples: ‘I have prayed for thee [Peter], that thy faith fail not…’”

    St. Peter and his successors were given the unfailing faith. It was not given to all members of the Church, all theologians, saints or doctors of the Church.

     God allowed the false theory of baptism of desire to be taught by fallible theologians and in fallible organs because He allows errors to be circulated, but He protected the official declarations of the Church from teaching it. That’s why it doesn’t appear in any infallible decree. Moreover, while He allowed baptism of desire to be circulated in fallible sources, He left a massive and gaping hole at the heart of its explanation. This gaping hole proves that it cannot justify because it doesn’t provide spiritual rebirth.

     To obstinately promote baptism of desire in the face of these facts is simply to be of bad will. It is to lie and to promote heresy. It is to promote a false doctrine. It is to believe and teach that people can be justified without being born again, contrary to the explicit teaching of the Catholic Church.

     People need to understand that YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED to simply find an opinion, an expression or a teaching in the writing of a doctor of the Church or a saint and just hold it no matter what. That was condemned under Pope Alexander VIII in the Errors of the Jansenists:
    “When anyone finds a doctrine clearly established in Augustine, he can absolutely hold it and teach it, disregarding any bull of the pope.” – Condemned by Pope Alexander VIII, Errors of the Jansenists, Dec. 7, 1690

     St. Augustine was a saint and doctor of the Church. He was not infallible. He wrote a book of Retractions. If you find a teaching in Augustine, you can’t just say, “It’s in Augustine. I’m going to hold it no matter what”, even if it doesn’t add up, even if it’s inconsistent with something of greater weight. No, you cannot just hold it. That’s a religion of man.

     Not only is baptism of desire obviously false, as I’ve shown, but baptism of blood is false as well. It’s contrary to the dogmatic arguments we’ve covered in our material. That’s why baptism of blood was never taught by the Church. It’s literally nowhere to be found in the teaching of the infallible papal Magisterium. Moreover, I’ve shown that the view of St. Alphonsus, St. Thomas, etc. on baptism of desire is untenable and contrary to Catholic teaching. In attempting to explain his position on this issue, St. Alphonsus also misquoted the Council of Trent, as we proved in our article on the matter. He cited something the Council of Trent stated about the Sacrament of Penance, and the desire for the Sacrament of Penance, and he incorrectly applied it to water baptism. He was simply wrong. You are not permitted to hold his opinion or St. Thomas Aquinas’ opinion or any man’s opinion if it contradicts something of greater weight; and we know for a fact that their explanation of the theory is false. Indeed, the teaching that one must reject the views of doctors of the Church, if they prove to be incompatible with the Church’s declaration, is the very teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas himself.

     St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Pt. II-II, Q. 10, A. 12: “The custom of the Church has very great authority and ought to be jealously observed in all things, since the very doctrine of Catholic doctors derives its authority from the Church. Hence we ought to abide by the authority of the Church rather than by that of an Augustine or a Jerome or of any doctor whatever.”

    This is a very interesting passage because some people will argue that the Church endorses the theology of St. Thomas. Yes, it endorses his theology in general; but, even if applied specifically, the theology of St. Thomas is that his opinions are not infallible and they must be set aside when a teaching of the Magisterium shows them to be lacking. His erroneous view on the Immaculate Conception is an example of such an opinion. This principle applies to any theologian or doctor of the Church. In fact, when supporters of BOD obstinately advance the position of St. Thomas or St. Alphonsus on this matter, in the face of the facts we’ve covered, they embarrass themselves. They make fools out of themselves; for they are obstinately making an argument, in the face of the facts, that people can be saved by baptism of desire from sources whose explanation proves that no one could be saved by baptism of desire; for you must be reborn to be justified.

     As Pope Benedict XIV declared in Apostolica (# 6), June 26, 1749: “The Church’s judgment is preferable to that of a Doctor renowned for his holiness and teaching.”

    Those who obstinately promote ‘baptism of desire’ in the face of these facts are simply promoting false doctrine against the teaching of the Church and will lose their souls.
     AN EVER-SHIFTING TERM FOR A MAN-MADE THEORY

     BAPTISMUS FLAMINIS- An additional problem with the false doctrine of baptism of desire concerns the term, baptismus flaminis. That’s the term in Latin people frequently translate as ‘baptism of desire’. However, it doesn’t mean ‘baptism of desire’. Flaminis is the genitive form of the third declension neuter noun, flamen. Flamen actually means: a blowing, a breath, a gale or a gust of wind. It doesn’t mean ‘desire’. But if you read pro-baptism of desire materials, you will find flaminis typically translated as ‘of desire’, even though it doesn’t mean ‘of desire’. In fact, in their writings you will often find this so-called baptismus flaminis (which doesn’t exist) translated as ‘baptism of fire’ or ‘baptism of flame’ or ‘baptism of spirit’, in addition to, of course, ‘of desire’. However, it doesn’t mean any of those things. Baptism of flame would be baptismus flammae, not flaminis; and baptism of fire would be baptismus ignis, not baptismus flaminis. The point is that they cannot even figure out what this term means because it’s a false theory of man.

    ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ AND ‘BLOOD’ NEVER FOUND THEIR WAY INTO AN INFALLIBLE DECREE OR COUNCIL BECAUSE THEY ARE FALSE
     The fact that baptism of desire is false is precisely why it never found its way into any infallible decree or the teaching of an ecuмenical council. Think about that. There were many councils. They promulgated extensive decrees on the sacraments, Baptism, the Church, Outside the Church There is No Salvation, Church unity, and many other issues; yet amazingly baptism of desire and baptism of blood were never taught. And contrary to what some supporters of baptism of desire falsely say, the Council of Trent did not teach it at all, as our material on that matter clearly proves. The reason baptism of desire and blood were never taught in any infallible decree or a council is that they are false doctrines. The councils even promulgated numerous dogmatic decrees on Baptism, its necessity, its form, infant baptism vs. adult baptism, one baptism, etc.; yet never once was baptism of desire or blood taught. The Holy Ghost protected the infallible teaching of the Church from those errors.

     THE TRUE APOSTOLIC TEACHING ON BAPTISM, WHICH WAS REVEALED BY JESUS (JOHN 3:5) AND DEFINED BY THE CHURCH, CONTINUED TO BE TAUGHT BY THE MAGISTERIUM EVEN INTO THE MODERN PERIOD, IN THE OFFICIAL TEACHING OF PAPAL ENCYCLICALS; AND ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ WAS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND

     It should also be noted that baptism of desire and blood not only were never taught in any infallible or magisterial proclamation of the Church, but even if you consider the centuries after the Council of Trent leading up to Vatican II, and you consult the official teaching of popes in papal encyclicals to the universal Church, you will discover that never once were the false ideas of baptism of desire and blood taught. Even though papal encyclicals to the entire Church frequently dealt with Baptism, the Church, its necessity, etc. during a period of time when theologians were advancing the false ideas of baptism of desire and blood left and right, the papal encyclicals to the entire Church never taught baptism of desire or blood. The Holy Ghost continued to protect the official teaching of the Church from these false doctrines, even though God permitted the false doctrines to be circulated in fallible sources: the teaching of theologians, catechisms, etc. God permitted these errors to be taught in fallible sources, and He allowed people to misunderstand this issue, simply because, as 1 Corinthians 11:19 says, there must be heresies.

     Eventually belief in the false doctrine of baptism of desire grew and expanded to such an extent that everyone who accepted the idea also held that you don’t need to believe in Jesus Christ and the Catholic faith to be saved. That is the position embraced or endorsed by every single proponent of ‘baptism of desire’ in our day. They hold that souls can be saved in false religions by a so-called ‘baptism of desire’. That’s why the problem at the heart of the false doctrine, which we’ve exposed in this article, won’t matter to many of them. They don’t care if their position is inconsistent. They are only concerned with believing something/anything that allows for salvation outside of Jesus Christ, His Church, and His Baptism. They use the false doctrine of baptism of desire simply as a false Christ, which supposedly saves people outside of Him and His faith. That position is completely heretical. It is contrary to the infallible teaching of the Church (see the dogmatic bull Cantate Domino from the Council of Florence). All supporters of baptism of desire in our day either believe in the aforementioned heresy or accept as Catholics people who believe in that heresy. Indeed, the promotion of this false doctrine in our day is the source of countless evils.

     PAPAL ENCYCLICALS IN THE MODERN PERIOD MAINTAIN AND TEACH THE TRUE DOCTRINE; THEY CONFIRM OUR POSITION

     It’s interesting to note that God not only never allowed the Magisterium to teach baptism of desire or blood, even in the years leading to Vatican II, but the Magisterium in that post-Trent, post-Vatican I period officially taught the same doctrine. It repeated the true doctrine of the Church: that no one can be a member of the Church without the Sacrament of Baptism, and that no one can be saved without it.

     Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22), June 29, 1943, addressed to the universal Church: “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith…”

    Pius XII officially teaches that if you have not received water baptism, you cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church. That’s the exact same doctrine that we find in the infallible teaching of the councils. We see it repeated in the official teaching of the Magisterium after Trent and Vatican I. We don’t find baptism of desire or blood.

     Pope Pius XII Mediator Dei (#47), Nov. 20, 1947, addressed to the universal Church, referring to the Sacrament of Baptism: “… the washing of baptism distinguishes and separates all Christians [christianos omnes] from the rest whom this stream of atonement has not washed and who are not members of Christ…”
    Pius XII specifically teaches that the Sacrament of Baptism distinguishes and separates all Christians (christianos omnes) from the rest. It distinguishes the baptized from non-Christians in the same way that the priest is distinguished from the rest of the faithful by the reception of the Sacrament of Order. According to the Magisterium, you cannot be a Christian without the Sacrament of Baptism; and only Christians are saved, as the Church dogmatically teaches. Hence, the exact same doctrine that we find in the infallible teaching of the councils is repeated here, in the official teaching of the Magisterium after Trent and Vatican I. We don’t find baptism of desire or blood.

     Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas (#15), Dec. 11, 1925, addressed to the universal Church, concerning entrance into the Kingdom of God: “Which Kingdom indeed is set forth in the Gospels as one into which men prepare to enter by doing penance but are unable to enter except through faith and baptism, which, although it is an external rite, nevertheless signifies and effects an interior regeneration.”

    Pius XI specifically teaches that men are unable to enter the Kingdom of God except through (nisi per) faith and baptism, which, he says, is an external rite. Since baptism of desire and blood are not external rites, he’s teaching that men are unable to enter Heaven without faith and the Sacrament or rite of Baptism. That’s the exact same doctrine that we find in the infallible teaching of the councils. We see it repeated in the official teaching of the Magisterium after Trent and Vatican I. We don’t find baptism of desire or blood.
     The true doctrine on regeneration and Baptism, that no one at all can be saved without being born again of water and the Spirit, comes from the teaching of Jesus Christ Himself. We read Christ’s own words on this matter in John 3:5 and Mark 16:16. The truth is repeated throughout the epistles of St. Paul, in which, among other things, he declares that receiving water baptism is being saved ‘through the faith’ (Galatians 3:26; Ephesians 2:8-9; Colossians 2:12; etc.).
    “… having been buried with him in baptism, by which you were also raised with him through the faith [??? ??? ???????]…” – Colossians 2:12
    “For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through the faith [??? ??? ???????]. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” – Galatians 3:26-27

     This true apostolic doctrine on the Sacrament of Baptism is contained in Scripture. It was taught by the fathers. It was infallibly declared by the ecuмenical councils; and, as we just saw, it was infallibly repeated in the official teaching of the popes and the Magisterium, even in the recent decades and centuries when errors and heresies on this matter were spreading and abounding.

     BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM
    “By their fruits you will know them” (Mt. 7:16). Those who pay attention to our material should also be able to recognize that properly understanding and adhering to the apostolic truth about regeneration (being born again) – the importance and necessity of which are explained in this article – is not only what gives one the key to recognizing the fatal flaw in the false doctrine of ‘baptism of desire’. It also gives one the key to understanding the best, most direct, and most powerful way to refute the salvation doctrine of the entire Protestant ‘Reformation’. That was proven in these videos: Docuмentary: Protestantism’s Big Justification Lie (video); ‘Born Again’ Refutes ‘Faith Alone’ & The Demonic Possession of James White.


     Understanding this apostolic truth, that regeneration leaves a person in a state completely free from all sin and from all punishment due to sin (‘immaculate’), also gives one the key to understanding the best biblical proofs for Mary’s Immaculate Conception (and her singular manner of being graced with the benefits of New Testament Redemption), which God left in the New Testament and the Bible. That was covered here: Mary’s Sinlessness: A Biblical Docuмentary.

     SEVEN OTHER DOGMATIC ARGUMENTS THAT REFUTE ‘BAPTISM OF DESIRE’
    The argument explained above, that ‘baptism of desire’ does not regenerate, and that one must be regenerated to be justified, completely refutes ‘baptism of desire’. Here are seven other dogmatic arguments that refute both ‘baptism of desire’ and ‘baptism of blood’. They were summarized at the beginning of our video: The Best Argument Against “Baptism of Desire”. They are expanded upon in our material.
     First, in every single dogmatic statement on the matter, the Catholic Church understands the words of Jesus Christ Himself in John 3:5 just as they are written. Jesus declared that unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. He prefaced His statement by saying, “Amen, Amen,” indicating that His words were extremely serious and solemn. By understanding those words of Jesus just as they are written, as it does in every dogmatic statement dealing with John 3:5, the Catholic Church infallibly teaches that no one can enter Heaven without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost, as Jesus Himself declared. That contradicts baptism of desire, which posits salvation without rebirth of water and the Holy Ghost.

     Second, the Catholic Church infallibly teaches that it’s absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam). It also infallibly teaches that the Church and the Roman Pontiff do not and cannot exercise jurisdiction over those who have not received the Sacrament of Baptism (see the Council of Trent. Sess. 14, Chap. 2). Since it’s absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the jurisdiction of the Church and the Roman Pontiff, and a human creature cannot be subject to the Church and the Roman Pontiff without receiving the Sacrament of Baptism, it follows that every human creature must receive the Sacrament of Baptism to be saved. There is simply no way around this argument.

     Third, in the first dogmatic definition of Outside the Church There is No Salvation, Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 infallibly defined that: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved.” The Church is dogmatically defined as the faithful, and any salvation outside of the faithful is emphatically excluded with the words nullus omnino (no one at all). Well, only the water baptized are part of the faithful. That’s clear from Church teaching, Tradition and liturgy. The unbaptized, including unbaptized catechumens, were explicitly excluded from the category of the faithful. Consider, for example, the Mass of the Catechumens (the unbaptized) versus the Mass of the faithful (the baptized). Since only the water baptized are part of the faithful, as we learn from Church teaching, Tradition and liturgy, and it’s infallibly certain that there is no salvation whatsoever outside the faithful, as the Church has defined, it follows that there is absolutely no salvation for those not water baptized.

     Fourth, the Catholic Church infallibly teaches that no one can be inside the Catholic Church (the Church outside of which no one is saved) without the Sacrament of Baptism. It also teaches that one cannot be a member of the Catholic Church or part of the Body of the Church without the Sacrament of Baptism (see Mystici Corporis, among other things). The teaching that only the baptized are in the Church or members of the Church presents such problems for supporters of baptism of desire that they’ve been forced to invent ridiculous theories, such as that one can supposedly be inside the Catholic Church without being a member of the Catholic Church, and that one can be part of the Soul of the Church without being part of the Body of the Church. Such theories were of course never taught by the Church, and they are indeed contradicted by its infallible decrees. For example, the Church infallibly teaches that all inside the Church are indeed members of the Catholic Church (see Vatican I, among other things, as covered in our video Baptism of Desire Buried). It is therefore false to assert that one can be inside the Church without being a member of the Church. The Church also teaches that only those in the Body of the Church can be saved (see Cantate Domino at the Council of Florence). It’s therefore incompatible with Catholic teaching to maintain that one who is supposedly in the Soul of the Church, but not in the Body of the Church, can be saved. Infallible Catholic teaching on the necessity of Church unity and membership, and how it is inextricably connected to receiving the Sacrament of Baptism, refutes the theory of ‘baptism of desire’ and related false doctrines.

     Fifth, in its Creed and in many other magisterial pronouncements, the Catholic Church infallibly teaches that there is only one baptism, not three. It not only infallibly teaches that there is only one baptism, but that there is only one baptism which is celebrated in water. This argument was discussed above. The dogmatic Council of Vienne specifically declared that this one baptism, which is celebrated in water, is what the members of the Catholic Church must faithfully confess. There is no other baptism, according to infallible Catholic teaching. “Moreover, only one baptism regenerating all baptized in Christ – just as ‘one God and one faith’ – is to be faithfully confessed by all, which, celebrated in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, we believe to be the perfect remedy for salvation for both adults and children.” (Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312)

     The same Council teaches that all in the Church have the same baptism: “… one is the universal Church… outside of which absolutely (omnino) no one (nullus) is saved, one is the Lord, one is the Faith and one is the baptism of all.” Consider the two dogmatic statements from The Council of Vienne on baptism as a unit, as points A and B. A. All in the Church (outside of which no one at all is saved) have one and the same baptism; and B. That one baptism (which all in the Church have) is of water. Baptism of desire is therefore false.

     Sixth, Pope St. Leo the Great’s dogmatic tome to Flavian (dated to 449), repeated at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, declares that the water of baptism, the spirit of sanctification, and the blood of Redemption are inseparable in sanctification. The links between the water, the spirit and the blood are such that they cannot be separated in sanctification; whereas the very theories of baptism of desire and blood posit that one can have sanctification separately from water baptism, contradicting that dogmatic teaching of Leo the Great.

     Pope St. Leo the Great, dogmatic letter to Flavian, The Council of Chalcedon, 451: “Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ’s blood (1 Pet. 1:2); and let him not skip over the same apostle’s words, knowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot (1 Pet. 1:18). Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sin (1 Jn. 1:7); and again, This is the victory which conquers the world, our faith. Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? It is He, Jesus Christ, who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony – Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. (1 Jn. 5:4-8)

     IN OTHER WORDS, THE SPIRIT OF SANCTIFICATION AND THE BLOOD OF REDEMPTION AND THE WATER OF BAPTISM. THESE THREE ARE ONE AND REMAIN INDIVISIBLE. NONE OF THEM IS SEPARABLE FROM ITS LINK WITH THE OTHERS.”

    Seventh, the bull Exultate Deo at the Council of Florence infallibly and explicitly taught that men cannot enter Heaven without rebirth of water and the Spirit, as the Truth (Jesus Christ Himself) says in John 3:5. The Council of Florence used its own words to present the teaching of John 3:5 as a truth of divine revelation. Therefore, no one enters Heaven without rebirth of water and the Spirit in the Sacrament of Baptism. That’s the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. That contradicts baptism of desire, which posits salvation without rebirth of water and the Spirit.


     Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

    There is also the oldest surviving papal decree in existence. It is the decree of Pope St. Siricius to Himerius. It holds tremendous significance. It constitutes another crushing blow to the false doctrine of ‘baptism of desire’. In his decree, Siricius infallibly teaches that all those who desire water baptism, but die without receiving it, will not be saved. He thus directly denies the concept of ‘baptism of desire’. The pope even speaks of people in danger and necessity who desire water baptism. He teaches that they cannot be saved without water baptism, which he identifies as the unique help of faith. He teaches that being baptized is their only hope of salvation. Pope St. Siricius’ decree is infallible, as our article on it proves. His decree also demonstrates that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, in addition to the Solemn Magisterium, directly contradicts the idea of ‘baptism of desire’.
    Pope St. Siricius, Decree to Himerius, A.D. 385:
     LATIN: “Sicut sacram ergo paschalem reverentiam in nullo dicimus esse minuendam, ita infantibus qui necdum loqui poterunt per aetatem vel his, quibus in qualibet necessitate opus fuerit sacra unda baptismatis, omni volumus celeritate succurri, ne ad nostrarum perniciem tendat animarum, si negato desiderantibus fonte salutari exiens unusquisque de saeculo et regnum perdat et vitam.
    “Therefore just as we say that the holy paschal observance is in no way to be diminished, we also say that to infants who will not yet be able to speak on account of their age or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.”
    Quicuмque etiam discrimen naufragii, hostilitatis incursum, obsidionis ambiguum vel cuiuslibet corporalis aegritudinis desperationem inciderint, et sibi unico credulitatis auxilio poposcerint subveniri, eodem quo poscunt momento temporis expetitae regenerationis praemia consequantur. Hactenus erratum in hac parte sufficiat; nunc praefatam regulam omnes teneant sacerdotes, qui nolunt ab apostolicae petrae, super quam Christus universalem construxit Ecclesiam, soliditate divelli.”
    Whoever should fall into the peril of shipwreck, the incursion of an enemy, the uncertainty of a siege or the desperation of any bodily sickness, and should beg to be relieved by the unique help of faith, let them obtain the rewards of the much sought-after regeneration in the same moment of time in which they beg for it. Let the previous error in this matter be enough; [but] now let all priests maintain the aforesaid rule, who do not want to be torn from the solidity of the apostolic rock upon which Christ constructed His universal Church.
     Read or watch more about Pope St. Siricius’ decree here: The Oldest Surviving Papal Decree (of Pope St. Siricius) Refutes ‘Baptism of Desire’ (article and video)
     Outside the Catholic Church There Is Absolutely No Salvation (this is our full book –it refutes all the objections people advance on this issue, and we update it with new points as time permits)
    • As these facts prove to anyone of good will, the Catholic Church teaches that no one can be saved without the regeneration of water and the Spirit in the Sacrament of Baptism. To promote the false idea of ‘baptism of desire’ or ‘baptism of blood’ in the face of these facts is simply to deny Catholic teaching and be of bad will.

     Pope Clement V, The Council of Vienne, 1311-1312: “Besides, only one baptism regenerating all who are baptized in Christ must be faithfully confessed by all just as ‘one God and one faith’ [Eph. 4:5], which celebrated in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit we believe to be the perfect remedy for salvation for both adults and children.”

    Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547: “Si quis dixerit, aquam veram et naturalem non esse de necessitate baptismi, atque ideo verba illa Domini nostri Iesu Christi: ‘Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu Sancto’ [Io 3, 5] ad metaphoram aliquam detorserit: A.S.”
     “If anyone should say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account should distort those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], into some metaphor: let him be anathema.”

    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547: “If anyone says that baptism [the sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema.”

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Best Argument Against the Theory of Bod
    « Reply #1 on: July 12, 2016, 01:33:32 PM »
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  • It is really dangerous to go to a post v2 source like this regarding an important aspect of dogma.  Do you have any sound pre-V2 sources?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Best Argument Against the Theory of Bod
    « Reply #2 on: July 12, 2016, 01:38:36 PM »
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  • Let me avoid an ipse dixit and provide proof.  To the objective observer the fact that the Dimond brothers are dishonest, taking quotes out of context and cutting parts of quotes that do not fit their agenda is enough for the serious minded Catholic to not consider them a sound or legitimate source for Catholic truth:

    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/08Jul/jul7str.htm

    Part 1 of this series addressed the question of Scholastic Dishonesty in a general manner, using principally the example of the Watchtower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses) teachings, but also a little bit from some of various Protestants, Deists, Secular Humanists, Agnostics, or Atheists who also twisted or misused the Sacred Scriptures. However, it is one particular form of scholastic dishonesty which I wish to address is one which is causing grief and sowing division with the Catholic fold itself. And that is the extraordinary propositions put forth most notably by Fr. Leonard Feeney, but also by his various followers, and most recently by Brother Peter Dimond, O. S. B.

        Peter Dimond's treatise, "Outside the Catholic Church There is Absolutely No Salvation," seems to represent (at least to me) the most exhaustive attempt to gather all the basic material regarding the various debates that have occurred regarding the question of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire under one cover. I suppose that Mr. Dimond can take it as a kind of left-handed compliment that I have elected his work to be the one I most directly refute, for in refuting his attempt to defend his denial of the Catholic doctrines regarding Baptism of Blood and of Desire I will have thereby refuted the others as well. It seems to me unlikely that he will have overlooked more than the barest handful of such arguments and quotations ever put forth.

        And the erroneous treatise (and equally erroneous doctrine almost unique to Fr. Feeney) truly needs to be addressed and refuted in order that the Church may purge Herself of a growing error which has already impaired Her functioning in the United States like a cancer, and is even now beginning to find some few followers in other countries. Interestingly enough, with the exception of Fr. Feeney himself and perhaps some barest handful of other priests (what pitifully few there have ever been, Fr. Michael Jarecki being the only one I know of, though Fr. James F. Wathen was generally known to be rather soft towards this error), the denials of Baptism of Blood and of Desire have been totally a move of the laity.

        In all of Church history, not a single bishop, not even a fallen or schismatic one, has ever advocated such a position. Well, perhaps they may eventually get their first. A recent announcement, dated Epiphany 2005, from the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, states their intention to have one of their members ordained as a priest. The problem shows up in finding a bishop to do it, for no bishop at present would willingly ordain anyone so plainly married to such a grave error. It can only be a matter of time before they (and others like them) begin saying to themselves, "We need to get ourselves a bishop." Given that the Roman Catholic bishops all reject this error, and for that matter so do all known schismatic and/or heretical bishops, there is no way (short of deception) that they will ever get a legitimate bishop (in any sense) to perform this ordination. It can only be a matter of time before they either decide that bishops (and priests) are not essential to the constitution of the Church, or else lower their standards, in that with only a little money there might well be some Old Catholic or Duarte-line cleric who might be willing to give them their first bishop.

        But look at what a serious implication this would say regarding the Church over the past however many centuries! If their claims against Baptism of Blood and of Desire (hereinafter to be shortened to the commonly used BOB/BOD) constituted the real Catholic doctrine, then the Church's popes and bishops have all been heretics (or at least holding to a very serious error) for centuries at least, or even from the very beginning. How can one posit an authoritative and infallible hierarchy of the Church without also claiming that it has been wrong about this matter for practically as long as the question seems to have come up specifically?

        "But all these popes and bishops haven't been wrong, for look at all the quotes we have in support of our claims!" they might protest. Ah, yes, the quotes! Before I get to those, allow me to identify four basic groups who will have to be most directly concerned with this response to their denials of BOB/BOD.

        The first would be those who themselves are the ones writing the books, preaching their denials, concocting their arguments and cases, and scouring all the dogmatic and historical sources of the Church for useful prooftexts for their cause instead of being edified and imbued with the Mind of the Church.
        The second group would be their inner circle of most ardent supporters who themselves are irrevocably committed to their teaching past any possible considerations whatsoever.
        The third group would be the remaining bulk of their followers who have been quite impressed with their claims and have even gone along with them for some season, but who remain nevertheless open to reason and to facts.
        Finally, the fourth group consists of those new inquirers who may be learning of these issues for the first time and as yet still wondering what to make of their claims.

        Regarding the first two groups, I harbor no illusions of persuading any of the deliberate deceivers among these for they will persist in their claim even in the face of seeing everyone else around them leaving them and saying "give it a rest; you've lost, admit it," even with no leg left to stand on they will continue pulling themselves along with their arms, and when they are with no arms, they would even then squidge and slither along further. In their present state of mind and soul, even if God Himself were to be standing before them in all His glory and announcing to them that yea verily they must abandon their denial of BOB/BOD they would call God Himself a liar to His face.

        It is really the third and fourth groups with which I am concerned. The fourth can here be quickly and fully warned as to what a mistake it would be to pursue such a direction. It is the third group who most sincerely feel obliged to be where they are on the strength of the quotations given, who, had the quotes themselves simply read different, would simply not even be there, but who believe it out of a good motive of loyalty to God and His Church. It is they whom I most principally wish to free from a terrible misunderstanding of Church doctrine into which they have been woefully deceived by the sheer artifice of scholastic dishonesty.

        While I have long wanted to write this series, other writing projects have always seemed to be more immediately pressing, and so this languished as a mere idea in the back of my head. But when a friend, who is also a writer, informed me that he had read the treatise by Mr. Dimond and found it convincing, I realized that I could afford to sit on this project no longer. It is to this fellow writer (you know who you are!) to whom this series is therefore dedicated. Now, to the quotes.

        Allow me to start with the first really persuasive seeming quote, for it appears to speak directly to the question of Baptism of Desire. This quote, from St. John Chrysostom, appears in Section 6, on page 21 of Peter Dimond's "Outside the Catholic Church There is Absolutely No Salvation" (hereinafter to be referred to as "the Treatise"):

        For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated [unbaptized], though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.

        How impressive that must be! Here is an ancient Church Father being quoted as saying that even a catechumen (unbaptized) with ten thousand virtues who dies as such must necessarily go to Hell. Does this not prove their claim, or at least show that St. John Chrysostom here has explicitly denied a belief in BOD?

        Ahh, but notice the ellipses. There's something missing.

        What is missing from such a selective quotation is the overall context in which the saint preaches on the sacrament of Baptism, and in the relevant paragraph herein he emphasizes the duty to pursue this course. Looking at the quote in context it becomes quite clear that there are those who become catechumens, but then remain thus long after they have otherwise qualified for water Baptism into the Church, and for no good reason. After all, less persecution would fall on the catechumen who, being such can easily renounce the Lord and then repent of it later, but all still before being baptized. Others may well still have had a life enslaved to some sin they were unwilling to give up, and at least respectful of the fact that they would have to give up their sin once baptized. And those who tarry thus are no better off in the Judgment than those who remain wholly in the world.

            Let us then who have been deemed worthy of such mysteries show forth a life worthy of the Gift, that is, a most excellent conversation; and do ye who have not yet been deemed worthy, do all things that you may be so, that we may be one body, that we may be brethren. For as long as we are divided in this respect, though a man be father, or son, or brother, or anything else, he is no true kinsman, as being cut off from that relationship which is from above. What advantages it to be bound by the ties of earthly family, if we are not joined by those of the spiritual? what profits nearness of kin on earth, if we are to be strangers in heaven? For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful. He has not the same Head, he has not the same Father, he has not the same City, nor Food, nor Raiment, nor Table, nor House, but all are different; all are on earth to the former, to the latter all are in heaven. One has Christ for his King; the other, sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes; one has worms' work for his raiment, the other the Lord of angels; heaven is the city of one, earth of the other. Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion? Did we remove the same pangs, did we come forth from the same womb? This has nothing to do with that most perfect relationship. Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city which is above. How long do we tarry over the border, when we ought to reclaim our ancient country? We risk no common danger; for if it should come to pass, (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be no other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble. But God grant that none of those who hear these words experience that punishment!

        So there it is in no uncertain terms. It is not catechumens in general (all) whom he has spoken of as being necessarily damned if they have the misfortune to die as such, but only those who needlessly tarry as such, perhaps presuming on their close association with the Church, perhaps even as a benefactor thereof, as being sufficient for salvation. Indeed, down through the ages the Church has long had any number of "fellow-travelers" who have said kind things of the Church or been friendly and even (at times) helpful, and yet have always stopped short of actually converting and joining Her.

        But this distinction is carefully concealed in the quote as given in the Treatise. To paraphrase and adapt some words from a later part of this selfsame Treatise (pages 82-83), "the words 'How long do we tarry over the border, when we ought to reclaim our ancient country?' are removed by Peter Dimond and replaced with ellipses (…).

        Now, of course, it is perfectly justifiable to use ellipses (…) when quoting texts, in order to pass over parts of the quotation that are not crucial or necessary in the discussion. But, in this case, the readers of Mr. Dimond's Treatise would have been well served to see this short, crucial clarification by St. John Chrysostom that baptism of desire would not apply to those catechumens who needlessly tarry. Mr. Dimond deliberately removed it because he knows that it is devastating to his contention that baptism of desire is not a teaching of the Church based on the opinions of saints." In the next installment I will deal with the accusation that Fr. Laisney might have committed anything similar in his book, Baptism of Desire.

        This one misused quotation should be enough to show that Peter Dimond is not above using whatever methods of scholastic dishonesty it takes to make his useful quotes seem to say what they do not in fact say. Nor can he claim to having made a sincere mistake, for he has to have seen the original, in order to cut it down deceptively into a shape so usable to his agenda. It also shows him willing to do what he accuses others of doing. Of course this is just one particular quote, and there are a number of others which will have to be addressed a little more generally.

        As discussed at the very end of Part 1, there is a most significant distinction to be made between "do not" and "have not." And as illustrated with the example of our Lady's virginity and St. Luke 1:34 in the Bible, and again with my example with the group that "does not" vote in elections, the distinction simply has to be recognized.

        This is no mere grammatical issue. It relates to the basic teaching of the Church regarding Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell. For God is just; and those punished in Hell are so damned not for anything which they had no control, but for their own sins. See who gets punished in Hell in the Second Death, as written in the Apocalypse: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Not those who "didn't accept Jesus Christ as their Personal Savior," nor those who "didn't happen to be baptized in water," but those who commit actual sins, the sins that necessarily follow from a condition of original sin and also the lack of the only remedy for sin, namely God's Grace.

        In Hell, the infliction of an actual pain of sense, is a direct and active punishment from God for actual sins. Only the pain of loss, which is an indirect and passive lack of God, can be for anyone who has against him nothing but that original sin he was born with (and hence the teaching of Limbo of infants).

        Choice is what runs through the warp and woof of all actual sins. For where there is no real choice neither can there be sin (apart from the original sin, and even that was based on a choice made by Adam, in whose flesh we were all born). People go to Hell because they chose something over God, some sin, some idol some whatever other thing of any sort that meant more to them than the Creator - the Father to Whom they owe their very existence and life, the Redeemer Jesus Christ Who died to pay for all their sin (original and actual), and the Sanctifier - the Holy Ghost Who labors to guide and assist them into the ways of righteousness and justice. The person who "does not" get himself baptized has made a terrible choice, and for that he justly does pay (if he does not repent) with the hellish pains of sense. For such is to refuse God, to refuse His gift, though knowing what it is.

        But circuмstance is something for which God does not judge. He does not alter His judgment depending on whether the one was born in a mud hut or with a golden spoon in his mouth, on whether one was born a man or a woman, on whether he was born Black or White or Asian, on whether he was born a Jew or a Gentile, on whether his parents paid to send him to the "best schools" or had to scrap about for an education on his own in the "school of hard knocks."

        God is not partial, and those who attempt to attribute such partiality to God besmirch His good character and Name. Getting back to Adam, notice that he is the one always blamed for the fall of mankind, never Eve, despite the fact that she was the first to eat from the forbidden tree, and furthermore preceded Adam's sin with yet another sin on her part, namely that of attempting to persuade Adam (Scandal by bad example? Heresy of teaching that it would open his eyes?). That is because Eve was deceived (2 Corinthians 11:3). Her material sin meant (at most) only her own death, whereas Adam's formal sin meant death for all (including, possibly, Eve).

        Let us compare a "has not" with a "do not" from the official magisterial docuмents. Pope Julius III in the Council of Trent stated that "the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not previously entered it by the gate of baptism." Although the point being made is quite different (a comparison between baptism and penance), it is interesting to see that no blanket denunciation could be made of all those who "have not" been baptized, for many are catechumens, and perhaps others on a more lengthy and convoluted spiritual journey, who are not hesitating or holding back, but proceeding on schedule and certainly God can see into their hearts to know that they will, if only given the chance, follow through to completion and entry into the Church by water baptism.

        But of those who "do not" get baptized or "do not" believe there is no such mercy. Gospel writer St. Mark records in chapter 16, verse 16 our Lord's crystal clear words "He who believes and is baptized will be saved but he who does not believe will be condemned." Obviously the Church does have the jurisdiction to condemn those who do not get baptized, though by so doing they remain outside.

        The denial of BOB/BOD, were it true, would do nothing but make it so that persons could be damned through no fault of their own. This differs little from the Calvinist idea (and Jansenist) of predestination. Why someone should desire such a state is not clear, apart from instilling terror, despair, and passivity. On the judgment day, God says to the condemned soul, "you must go and burn in Hell because you…" How terrible it would be if God were to say to anyone "you must go and burn in Hell because I…"!

        Another form of scholastic dishonesty is that of overspecification. With this one attempts to refute some clear but narrow limited exception to some rule by mere assertion of the rule itself. It is like citing any number of vehicle codes, posted speed limits, speed laws including the "basic speed law," and so forth for the whole country or even from around the world, as "proof" that driving more than 70 MPH on the Indianapolis 500 Speedway is against the Law.

        It is like the Watchtower Society quoting Deuteronomy 6:4 and 1 Corinthians 8:6 and any number of other Scriptures like them which declare the unity of God as "proof" that the three Persons of the Holy Trinity cannot all be God. And it is like that with the doctrine of Papal Infallibility.

        From the beginning onward, the infallibility of the Pope has always been recognized by the Church, and there does not appear to have been any belief in there being any sort of "exceptions" to that teaching. When "Rome" (in the person of the Pope) spoke, the cause was finished, no matter what. Roma locuta est, causa finita est. I have no doubt that many of the ancient fathers might well have interiorly regarded it as heresy to admit any exceptions to that infallibility.

        But over the years, reason, time to examine and understand the doctrine more carefully, and most of all the painful lessons of history, has forced the Church to admit some small number of exceptions to Papal Infallibility. As none of these exceptions arose in the opening few centuries of the Church, the question of whether any of these sorts of exceptions could theoretically exist was never even considered, and one can only guess what the ancients would have thought if confronted with any such exception as is recognized today.

        One such specific and significant exception pertains to the domain of a pope's infallibility. Many Protestants and other non-Catholics regard the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope as having been falsified by the condemnation of Galileo, never mind the fact that the Pope was actually condemning his attitude, not his scientific findings (to which he was absolutely indifferent). Some have even equated infallibility with impeccability and thus regarded it as falsified by the reprehensible behaviors of certain few corrupt popes. But even if ever a pope were to attempt to condemn a mere material scientific finding or other fact, he could not do so validly since Papal Infallibility only pertains to the domain of Faith and Morals.

        About geology or mathematics or history or archeology or chemistry or physics or psychology or literature, or even for that matter whether a particular Catholic soul should be excommunicated or not, a pope is fully as fallible as any other mere mortal of comparable learning, intelligence, and experience.

        When Pope Honorius I attempted to "resolve" a doctrinal question put to him by drafting a creedal formula which was fully open to the Monophysite heresy, the Church reeled for centuries from that one event, taking that long to decide whether Honorius was even a real pope or not. Eventually the Church realized that an ambiguous declaration (so long as it at least as readily admitted the correct interpretation as any incorrect one) is always possible.

        For example, the Apostle's Creed is sufficiently short and simple as to be equally acceptable to Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and even many of the more "High Church" Protestants. But obviously there is no real fault to the Apostle's Creed. And had the formula by Pope Honorius been published prior to the rise of any Monophysite heresy or even question in that direction, it might well have been recognized and hailed among the basic Creedal formulas of the Church instead of being condemned as it in fact was. For that matter he could have equally refused to address the question put to him by merely sending a copy of the Apostle's Creed itself. So an infallible papal teaching can nevertheless be ambiguous, only so long as the orthodox and Catholic interpretation is readily possible.

        Then again, when Pope John XXII taught his error it took some time for the Church to conclude that the doctrine of Papal Infallibility only applies to the teachings officially given by the pope in his papal capacity as the Successor of Peter to whom the keys of the kingdom and the whole of universal jurisdiction has been given, and not to any other teaching given by the man when not acting specifically in that capacity or office. And of course it is quite probable that the present situation may carve out yet some other exception to Papal Infallibility.

        So what this means is that wide and sweeping generalizations cannot always be meant to apply to some certain limited cases. The Law against murder does not prohibit the execution of those lawfully convicted of a serious crime, nor the random and wanton killing of enemy soldiers in battle. The declaration that "all have sinned" does not include Jesus, Mary, the Father, the Holy Ghost, Angel Gabriel, Archangel Michael, the other good angels, or even Adam and Eve prior to their sin in the garden.

        But important to note here is that this is not about allowing exception after exception to whittle away at some doctrine until the doctrine itself ends up being reduced to a nullity. More than adverse history was needed to justify each and every exception to the doctrine. There always had to be some other reason, some other doctrine, or some logical imperative that not only shows that the exception can and should exist, but even that it could have been deduced a priori had a sufficient inquiry been made into the question, even without the historical event being on record.

        Even the ancient Church would have to have understood the difference in weight between St. Peter announcing that "He who denies that Jesus came in the flesh is a heretic and anathema be upon him," on the one hand, and "This lamb tastes really good, much better than that beef we had last week," on the other.

        In my previous example regarding the difference between "has not" and "do not" there is room for some who "have not" to not be condemned whereas all who "do not" are indeed condemned. This has its basis in the doctrines about the role of the human will in the Divine Judgment, namely that we are judged for what we do and not for our circuмstances. And if taking human life was always wrong why did St. John the Baptist not warn the Roman soldiers against it (Luke 3:14)?

        Another point to bear in mind is that, technically, all saved souls are inside either the Church Suffering (Purgatory - being saved but "as through fire"), or else the Church Triumphant. No one as yet remaining in the Church Militant can truly be spoken of as "saved" as yet, for with each there remains, while he is alive, some chance that he could fall into some serious sin and die therein. So in this sense it is absolutely accurate to say that there are no saved souls outside the Church (specifically, Church Suffering and Triumphant only).

        There are no saved souls in the Church Militant, only justified souls (being in a state of Grace), along with any non-justified souls (being Catholics in a state of mortal sin). From a salvationary standpoint, the most one could aspire to in this lifetime would be to be in a state of Sanctifying Grace, such that if they died this very moment they would at least ultimately end up in Heaven. The Protestant idea of "once saved, always saved" for anyone in this life is just that, a Protestant idea, and for that matter not even universally held among the Protestants. It is sheer heresy.

        There is no one this side of the grave who can truly be described as being "saved." And so whenever any official magisterial docuмent of the Church is mentioning saved souls, it can only refer to those who are in either the Church Suffering or the Church Triumphant.

        Once one departs from this life, one goes either to the Church Suffering, or the Church Triumphant, or else they are damned. There is no other alternative in the afterlife. And Church (whether Suffering or Triumphant) is equally as much Church as Church (Militant) is here. One cannot find salvation in going anywhere else. This is also a very close corollary to the fact that the Church is the one and only means to salvation that God has provided.

        No other "church" or group or organization or nation or what not has the power accorded to God's Church alone, and that is the jurisdiction to forgive souls, the authority to speak and teach and rule on behalf of God in Heaven, that "What is bound on Earth is bound in Heaven," and "He who hears you hears Me." There is no other name under Heaven by which anyone can ever be saved. And so whenever any official magisterial docuмent of the Church is mentioning the exclusive value of the Church it refers to this point, but says nothing as to what means the Church, in turn, has for applying graces to souls.

        BOB and BOD are in no way anything like attempts to deny these truths, but quite obviously part and parcel with them. In a case of an actual BOB the question must be asked: what Church was the dying soul baptized into with his own blood? The answer must be: Only the one true Church. In a case of an actual BOD what Church was the soul actively laboring and scheduled to join, in due course of time and procedure? Again, only the one true Church.

        And even those procedures are something to note. If being a catechumen in good standing, progressing straightforwardly towards the waters of baptism, were to be such a hazardous and dangerous state to be in, how could the ancient Church have dared to be so cavalier with souls as to make then wait until the coming Easter to be baptized in water? This is especially cogent when considering the times of the persecutions, when just any Christian could be yanked off the streets and put to death without trial, accountability, or even advance notice, to say nothing of deadly plagues, accidents, famine, health limitations, and so forth that are always possible!

        Obviously the Church could afford to take Her time in receiving converts since She knew that anyone of truly good will would meet God's mercy should circuмstance and happenstance, or persecution and martyrdom, intercept that schedule and force them prematurely into the next life.

        Another point to notice is that many of the most damning passages of the magisterial docuмents refer not to those who never entered the Church, but rather those who were in the Church (baptized in water), but who are not faithful to the Church, whether by heresy, excommunication, or serious sins or what not. One finds in these statements such words as "abides" or "remains" or "holds" which clearly refer to those already in the Church, and their duty before God never to depart from the Church, but to abide in Her always, to remain in Her, and to hold fast to Her teaching.

        Finally, it is true that there is only one way to enter the Church Militant, and that is indeed by water baptism. A catechumen, though associated with the Church, though blessed by the Church, though he himself becomes a blessing to the Church, nevertheless remains outside the Church so long as he remains thus, whether innocently or guiltily. And that innocence or guilt is something that God alone sees in the heart of the individual. And seeing that innocence or guilt in the heart of a soul abruptly forced into eternity ahead of the due time for their baptism by water into the Church Militant, is it not for God to determine on a case by case basis whether that soul shall be damned if guilty (as in the case criticized by St. John Chrysostom), or else admitted directly into either the Church Suffering or the Church Triumphant if that soul be innocent in His sight, and that without their ever having been in the Church Militant?

        So to sum up, there are six realities that must be borne in mind when reading the following quotes, so as to read them in the sense always and forever intended by the Church, and with the Mind of the Church, understanding them exactly as they were written, and not with the alien interpretation foisted upon them by the likes of Peter Dimond and Fr. Feeney:

        1) Those passages referring to damnation of those outside the Church always carry a sense of "do not" and never "have not."

        2) Those passages that make sweeping generalizations would naturally have to admit certain limited exceptions, as can be defended by other doctrines as applicable.

        3) Those passages referring to saved souls can only be speaking of those who are in either Purgatory or Heaven, nowhere else.

        4) Those passages referring to the Church as the only means of salvation mean that no other "church" can save, but do not limit the Church's methods for applying God's Grace to souls.

        5) Those passages referring to the necessity to "abide" or "remain" or "continue" in the Church have no bearing on questions of BOB and BOD and entrance requirements since they speak only to those who are already in the Church Militant.

        6) Those passages which speak of water baptism as being the only means of entering the Church are speaking of how to enter the Church Militant, the only one of the three levels of the Church which one can voluntarily join.

        So, taking into account the above listed six realities, one at last can read the following doctrinal and dogmatic magisterial statements in their true sense, that which the Church has always intended by them from the very beginning:

            Note: Numbers in brackets in bold after each quote indicate which of the above six points apply to the quote.

        "… the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ… Nor is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name, under Heaven, given to men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) [4]

        "If anyone abideth not in Me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth" (St. John 15:6) [5]

        Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: "With the admonition of the apostle that 'there is one God, one faith, one baptism' (Eph. 4:5) may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that 'those who are not with Christ are against Him,' (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, 'without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate" (Athanasian Creed).[5]

        Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: "There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice." [3]

        Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: "With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff." [4,5]

        Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: "Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…" [3,5]

        Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: "Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity." [5]

        Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra: "For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith." [3,5]

        Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, "Iniunctum nobis," Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: "This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…" [2,4]

        Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: "This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…" [2,4]

        Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: "This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…" [2,4]

        Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio, 590-604: "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved." [1]

        Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: "By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved." [3]

        Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351: "In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved." [1,4]

        Pope St. Pius V, Bull excommunicating the heretic Queen Elizabeth of England, Feb. 25, 1570: "The sovereign jurisdiction of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, has been given by Him, unto Whom all power in Heaven and on Earth is given, the King who reigns on high, but to one person on the face of the Earth, to Peter, prince of the Apostles... If any shall contravene this Our decree, we bind them with the same bond of anathema." [1,3,5]

        Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824: "It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church." [4]

        Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: "We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation. In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation." [4]

        Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: "With the admonition of the apostle, that 'there is one God, one faith, one baptism' (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that 'those who are not with Christ are against Him,' (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, 'without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed)." [1,4,5]

        Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832: "Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life." [1,3]

        Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: "For 'there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism." [3,4]

        Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: "In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics)." [1,4]

        Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 - Proposition 16: "Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation."33 - Condemned. [4]

        Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi futura prospicientibus (# 7), Nov. 1, 1900: "Christ is man's 'Way'; the Church also is His 'Way'… Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain." [1,4]

        Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904: "Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation…" [1,4]

        Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: "The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society. Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station and office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation." [4]

        Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation." [1,4,5]

        Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, On the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Sess. 14, Chap. 2, ex cathedra: "But in fact this sacrament [Penance] is seen to differ in many respects from baptism. For, apart from the fact that the matter and form, by which the essence of a sacrament is constituted, are totally distinct, there is certainly no doubt that the minister of baptism need not be a judge, since the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not previously entered it by the gate of baptism. For what have I to do with those who are without (1 Cor. 5:12), says the Apostle. It is otherwise with those of the household of the faith, whom Christ the Lord by the laver of baptism has once made 'members of his own body' (1 Cor. 12:13)." [4,5]

        Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, "Exultate Deo," Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: "Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, 'unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,' as the Truth says, 'enter into the kingdom of heaven'. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water." [6]

        Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: "Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration [water baptism] and profess the true faith." [6]

        Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 27), June 29, 1943: "He (Christ) also determined that through Baptism (cf. Jn. 3:5) those who should believe would be incorporated in the Body of the Church." [2,6]

        Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: "In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration." [6]

        Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: "But the sacrament of baptism is consecrated in water at the invocation of the undivided Trinity - namely, Father, Son and Holy Ghost - and brings salvation to both children and adults when it is correctly carried out by anyone in the form laid down by the Church." [6]

        Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: "Likewise (I profess) that baptism is necessary for salvation, and hence, if there is imminent danger of death, it should be conferred at once and without delay, and that it is valid if conferred with the right matter and form and intention by anyone, and at any time." [1,2]

        Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas (# 15), Dec. 11, 1925: "Indeed this kingdom is presented in the Gospels as such, into which men prepare to enter by doing penance; moreover, they cannot enter it except through faith and baptism, which, although an external rite, yet signifies and effects an interior regeneration." [1,6]

        Pope St. Leo the Great, dogmatic letter to Flavian, Council of Chalcedon, 451: "Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ's blood (1 Pet. 1:2); and let him not skip over the same apostle's words, knowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot (1 Pet. 1:18). Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sin (1 Jn. 1:7); and again, This is the victory which conquers the world, our faith. Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? It is He, Jesus Christ, who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony - Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. (1 Jn. 5:4-8) in other words, the Spirit of sanctification and the Blood of redemption and the water of Baptism. These three are one and remain indivisible. None of them is separable from its link with the others." [1,2,6]

        It behooves us to look closely at the favorite "authoritative quote" so misapplied in the Treatise and by all opposers of BOB/BOD:

        Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." [1,2,5]

        Look closely at this paragraph immediately above and one sees two basic parts, the first that teaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives" (in other words, dealing with those who are outside the Church, and the second, "that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," which deals with those who are inside the Church. Notice that it is clearly referring to the second part (those inside the Church) when it uses the word "persevered" to specify what they must do. To sacrifice all and give any manner of alms etc. but then fail to persevere within the Church is to be in that category in which "nobody can be saved." Only the first part of this paragraph pertains to those who are outside the Church (and hence required to seek baptism), and the only condition it places upon them is to be "joined to the Church before the end of their lives." Since this does not in any manner address what it takes to be "joined to the Church" it in no way excludes whatever means God may elect to use in some specific case where water baptism was not obtainable but nevertheless sought.

        So, what all this means is that the above quotations can therefore be eliminated as valid prooftexts by which some use to deny BOB/BOD. It has to be clear that none of the above quotes even address BOB/BOD, let alone condemn it, for indeed if any of the above could have been so taken, how is it that so many popes, saints, doctors, fathers, and other formal doctrinal sources could ever possibly ignored these in their affirmation of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #3 on: July 12, 2016, 01:52:57 PM »
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  • Allow me to start with the first really persuasive seeming quote, for it appears to speak directly to the question of Baptism of Desire. This quote, from St. John Chrysostom, appears in Section 6, on page 21 of Peter Dimond's "Outside the Catholic Church There is Absolutely No Salvation" (hereinafter to be referred to as "the Treatise"):

       
    Quote
    For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated [unbaptized], though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.


        How impressive that must be! Here is an ancient Church Father being quoted as saying that even a catechumen (unbaptized) with ten thousand virtues who dies as such must necessarily go to Hell. Does this not prove their claim, or at least show that St. John Chrysostom here has explicitly denied a belief in BOD?

        Ahh, but notice the ellipses. There's something missing.

        What is missing from such a selective quotation is the overall context in which the saint preaches on the sacrament of Baptism, and in the relevant paragraph herein he emphasizes the duty to pursue this course. Looking at the quote in context it becomes quite clear that there are those who become catechumens, but then remain thus long after they have otherwise qualified for water Baptism into the Church, and for no good reason. After all, less persecution would fall on the catechumen who, being such can easily renounce the Lord and then repent of it later, but all still before being baptized. Others may well still have had a life enslaved to some sin they were unwilling to give up, and at least respectful of the fact that they would have to give up their sin once baptized. And those who tarry thus are no better off in the Judgment than those who remain wholly in the world.

           
    Quote
    Let us then who have been deemed worthy of such mysteries show forth a life worthy of the Gift, that is, a most excellent conversation; and do ye who have not yet been deemed worthy, do all things that you may be so, that we may be one body, that we may be brethren. For as long as we are divided in this respect, though a man be father, or son, or brother, or anything else, he is no true kinsman, as being cut off from that relationship which is from above. What advantages it to be bound by the ties of earthly family, if we are not joined by those of the spiritual? what profits nearness of kin on earth, if we are to be strangers in heaven? For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful. He has not the same Head, he has not the same Father, he has not the same City, nor Food, nor Raiment, nor Table, nor House, but all are different; all are on earth to the former, to the latter all are in heaven. One has Christ for his King; the other, sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes; one has worms' work for his raiment, the other the Lord of angels; heaven is the city of one, earth of the other. Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion? Did we remove the same pangs, did we come forth from the same womb? This has nothing to do with that most perfect relationship. Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city which is above. How long do we tarry over the border, when we ought to reclaim our ancient country? We risk no common danger; for if it should come to pass, (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be no other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble. But God grant that none of those who hear these words experience that punishment!


        So there it is in no uncertain terms. It is not catechumens in general (all) whom he has spoken of as being necessarily damned if they have the misfortune to die as such, but only those who needlessly tarry as such, perhaps presuming on their close association with the Church, perhaps even as a benefactor thereof, as being sufficient for salvation. Indeed, down through the ages the Church has long had any number of "fellow-travelers" who have said kind things of the Church or been friendly and even (at times) helpful, and yet have always stopped short of actually converting and joining Her.

        But this distinction is carefully concealed in the quote as given in the Treatise. To paraphrase and adapt some words from a later part of this selfsame Treatise (pages 82-83), "the words 'How long do we tarry over the border, when we ought to reclaim our ancient country?' are removed by Peter Dimond and replaced with ellipses (…).

        Now, of course, it is perfectly justifiable to use ellipses (…) when quoting texts, in order to pass over parts of the quotation that are not crucial or necessary in the discussion. But, in this case, the readers of Mr. Dimond's Treatise would have been well served to see this short, crucial clarification by St. John Chrysostom that baptism of desire would not apply to those catechumens who needlessly tarry. Mr. Dimond deliberately removed it because he knows that it is devastating to his contention that baptism of desire is not a teaching of the Church based on the opinions of saints." In the next installment I will deal with the accusation that Fr. Laisney might have committed anything similar in his book, Baptism of Desire.

        This one misused quotation should be enough to show that Peter Dimond is not above using whatever methods of scholastic dishonesty it takes to make his useful quotes seem to say what they do not in fact say. Nor can he claim to having made a sincere mistake, for he has to have seen the original, in order to cut it down deceptively into a shape so usable to his agenda. It also shows him willing to do what he accuses others of doing. Of course this is just one particular quote, and there are a number of others which will have to be addressed a little more generally.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #4 on: July 12, 2016, 02:07:53 PM »
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  • What an obscene hypocrite.  You complain about modern sources and then paste in something from the Daily Uncatholic.  You don't even realize how ridiculous you've made yourself.

    You do nothing but attack sources.  Refute the argument.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #5 on: July 12, 2016, 02:14:39 PM »
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  •   But another quote is shown that gives it all away (and the Treatise's author must have been desperate to have need of recourse to such a passage), and which he can only have been hoping that by that point (rather far along in the Treatise) the reader is no longer looking too closely at the quotes, or only at the highlighted phrases, for he gives another St. John Chrysostom quote correctly, but with misleading emphasis, thus:

        St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: "And plainly must we grieve for our own catechumens, should they, either through their own unbelief or through their own neglect, depart this life without the saving grace of baptism."

        One need merely look at the quote again, but this time with a different emphasis that shows what the Saint is really trying to say:

        St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: "And plainly must we grieve for our own catechumens, should they, either through their own unbelief or through their own neglect, depart this life without the saving grace of baptism."

        And this again ties directly into what St. Bernard was saying over and over again about the damnation of those who show contempt for the Sacrament, but not for those overtaken by misfortune. It couldn't be clearer. Those who tarry and waste their time, content to wait in a vaguely Christian orbit but who never seem to quite get around to coming in for a landing into the Faith and Church are in a very bad way, but nothing of this kind is said regarding those who are truly pursuing to enter into the Faith and Church, who have contrition for their sins, love of God and neighbor, and who seek to place themselves at the service of Holy Mother Church as a baptized member, even should their progress be cut off by death before attaining the baptismal font.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

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    The Best Argument Against the Theory of Bod
    « Reply #6 on: July 12, 2016, 02:18:18 PM »
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  • Now let's look at another ancient Father whose words are used in the Treatise to attempt to deny BOD:

       
    Quote
    St. Gregory nαzιanz, 381 AD: "Of those who fail to be baptized some are utterly animal and bestial, according to whether they are foolish or wicked. This, I think, they must add to their other sins, that they have no reverence for this gift, but regard it as any other gift, to be accepted if given them, or neglected if not given them. Others know and honor the gift; but they delay, some out of carelessness, some because of insatiable desire. Still others are not able to receive it, perhaps because of infancy, or some perfectly involuntary circuмstance which prevents them from receiving the gift, even if they desire it… "If you were able to judge a man who intends to commit murder, solely by his intention and without any act of murder, then you could likewise reckon as baptized one who desired Baptism, without having received Baptism. But, since you cannot do the former, how can you do the latter? I cannot see it. If you prefer, we will put it like this: if in your opinion desire has equal power with actual Baptism, then make the same judgment in regard to glory. You will then be satisfied to long for glory, as if that longing itself were glory. Do you suffer any damage by not attaining the actual glory, as long as you have a desire for it?"


        There are really two separate quotes in this. The first part has a really serious omission. Looking up the quote as given in Fr. Jurgens' book, it reads in full (and I underline that which was omitted):

       
    Quote
    St. Gregory nαzιanz, 381 AD: "Of those who fail to be baptized some are utterly animal and bestial, according to whether they are foolish or wicked. This, I think, they must add to their other sins, that they have no reverence for this gift, but regard it as any other gift, to be accepted if given them, or neglected if not given them. Others know and honor the gift; but they delay, some out of carelessness, some because of insatiable desire. Still others are not able to receive it, perhaps because of infancy, or some perfectly involuntary circuмstance which prevents them from receiving the gift, even if they desire it… I think that the first will have to suffer punishment, not only for their other sins, but also for their contempt of Baptism. The second group will also be punished, but less because it was not through wickedness as much as through foolishness that they brought about their own failure. The third group will be neither glorified nor punished by the just Judge; for though unsealed they are not wicked. They are not so much wrong-doers as persons who have suffered a loss… If you were able to judge a man who intends to commit murder, solely by his intention and without any act of murder, then you could likewise reckon as baptized one who desired Baptism, without having received Baptism. But, since you cannot do the former, how can you do the latter? I cannot see it. If you prefer, we will put it like this: if in your opinion desire has equal power with actual Baptism, then make the same judgment in regard to glory. You will then be satisfied to long for glory, as if that longing itself were glory. Do you suffer any damage by not attaining the actual glory, as long as you have a desire for it?"


        Unhappily, the two ellipses still showing here in this second and correct giving of the quote are contained in the passage as provided in Fr. Jurgens' book. There is no way to tell whether these gaps represent gaps in the surviving docuмent or gaps in what Fr. Jurgens saw fit to present, but notice the significant passage edited out. It mentions a first group (the utterly animal and bestial) who spurn baptism, thus plainly adding that sin to their other sins, and who will be punished most severely, then a second group (those who delay out of carelessness or insatiable desire for other things), and who will also be punished, though not as much as the first group, and then a third group consisting of those unable to be baptized (the infants who do not get baptized by their parents). Because of the ellipse in Fr. Jurgen's book, it is not clear whether he would have gone on to mention those who were prevented from being baptized by some involuntary circuмstance as a fourth group who attain eternal life, or if he intended to lump such within the category of the unbaptized infants, but either way the unbaptized adult who dies thus unbaptized through no fault of his own is in no way to be punished as the Treatise would have one falsely believe. His description of the fate of the "third group" does seem a startlingly accurate description of the Limbo of the Children, specifically.

        Regarding the latter half of the quote, it doesn't take much to see that he is speaking here not of God's judgment, but of the Church and how the Church is to judge someone. For as he puts it, "you" (that is the Church officials who must make some juridical or disciplinary decision) would not be in any position to judge if a man merely intends (but has no chance to carry out) a murder, then likewise neither is it your place to assume (on your part) a good intention on the part of one who has not received water baptism. But of course God who sees into the hearts of all most certainly CAN judge the murderer in the heart and the adulterer in the heart, and by that same token can also judge as to whose failure to obtain water baptism is through no fault of their own. And finally, the point is made that one cannot substitute the desire (even full and proper and capable of qualifying one for a Baptism of Desire should they die peremptorily) for the act, the actual celebration of the mystery of water baptism. Such a desire for baptism does not become a Baptism of Desire until and unless they indeed die somewhere short of the baptismal font through no fault of their own. Hence the rights and responsibilities in the Church, and most notably, to receive the other sacraments, does not belong to him, his mere longing does not qualify him for any of that. So again, there really is nothing here against BOD, and obviously nothing against BOB either.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #7 on: July 12, 2016, 02:23:23 PM »
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  •  One of the most damning quotes however comes not directly from any of the early Fathers, but from Fr. William Jurgens, the complier of selected texts from the various ancient Church Fathers, from whose trio of books The Faith of the Early Fathers provide the source for many of the quotes given in the Treatise. Perhaps it would be simplest to begin with the quote from Fr. Jurgens as given three times in the Treatise on pages 48, 76, and 183-184, as it makes such a great sounding quote to use in its claim that the rejection of BOB and BOD would be the unanimous teaching of the fathers of the Church on this issue:

       
    Quote
    Fr. William Jurgens: "If there were not a constant tradition in the Fathers that the Gospel message of 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdom of God' is to be taken absolutely, it would be easy to say that our Savior simply did not see fit to mention the obvious exceptions of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility. But the tradition in fact is there; and it is likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation."


        On the face of it one would think that Fr. Jurgens seems to have found a universal tradition (the sort of thing that would have to be recognized as being infallible, hence his mention of it as something that could constitute revelation) among the ancient Fathers that the requirement for water baptism found no exceptions. But is that what the quote really says?

        Most unfortunately for the case being made in the Treatise, the context shows something quite fundamentally different. The quote is found in a footnote in the third volume of Fr. Jurgen's "The Faith of the Early Fathers," namely footnote 31 on pages 14 and 15. A statement in a paragraph numbered 1441, on page 9 of the same volume, is what is so footnoted. Let us now see what the footnote goes to, and what the whole footnote actually says:

       
    Quote
    Let each one think what he likes contrary to any of Cyprian's opinions but let no one hold any opinion contrary to the manifest belief of the Apostle. ... A reason must be sought and given why souls, if they are newly created for each one being born, are damned if the infants die without Christ's Sacrament31. That they are damned if they so depart the body is the testimony both of Holy Scripture and of Holy Church.

        31. The state of infants who die without Baptism has long been one of the knottier problems of theology. If there were not a constant tradition in the Fathers that the Gospel message of "Unless a man be born again et reliqua" is to be taken absolutely, it would be easy to say that our Savior simply did not see fit to mention the obvious exceptions of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility. But the tradition in fact is there; and it is likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation. The Church has always admitted Baptism of desire as a rescuing factor, when the desire is a personal and conscious one on the part of the one desiring Baptism for himself, as in the case of a catechumen.

        Some loose thinkers are content to apply Baptism of desire to an infant, who is incapable of knowing and desiring. That being pointed out, they will posit the desire in parents on behalf of children; but if in fact the parents do not desire or if they positively reject Baptism for their infant child, is the infant then to be damned because of the parents' ignorance or malice? Many today are content to ignore the problem as if it did not exist, or to treat it as a ridiculous scruple. We hear them quote the Scriptures, that God desires all men to be saved, as if that had any application here! Let us turn back to the notion of Baptism of desire, and I [Fr. Jurgens] think we will find a solution apart from the generous but questionable notion of limbo, without condemning these infants outright as Augustine reluctantly does, and without doing violence either to Scripture or Tradition.

        Saint Thomas [Aquinas] notes that the Eucharist is absolutely necessary for salvation. If a man has never received the Eucharist, he cannot be saved. But Thomas then adds these distinctions: that if one is dying and has never received the Eucharist, his positive desire for it will suffice (the precise parallel of Baptism of desire); or in the case of infants or ignorant savages the desire on their behalf on the part of the Church herself will suffice. If this latter is true in regard to the Eucharist, why not in regard to Baptism? Tradition already admits Thomas' first Eucharistic distinction in regard also to Baptism: a desire on the part of the individual himself. Why not, then, his second distinction in regard to infants and the invincibly ignorant, a desire supplied by the desire of the Church herself? This obviates the necessary objection to a desire supplied by parents: they may not have such a desire. The Church always desires the welfare of mankind and it is impossible that she should not desire it.


        So, one sees from the actual quote, now in context, that it is only with respect to the infants where water baptism is universally spoken of as being the only way to enter the kingdom of God. One also sees here from this quote that Fr. Jurgens is, sadly, very much of a Modernist outlook, and if anything even tries to water down that universality of the Fathers regarding the state of infants with his own speculations on the parents' or Church's desire on their behalf (very much like some more recent attempts to do away with Limbo!). But clearly Fr. Jurgens is in no way attempting to claim that the ancient Fathers rejected BOB and BOD! The Treatise has therefore misrepresented the quote most criminally, and this cannot be dismissed as an accident.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #8 on: July 12, 2016, 02:23:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    What an obscene hypocrite.  You complain about modern sources and then paste in something from the Daily Uncatholic.  You don't even realize how ridiculous you've made yourself.

    You do nothing but attack sources.  Refute the argument.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #9 on: July 12, 2016, 02:40:31 PM »
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  •  There are a few other papal quotes to review here. Let us start with Pope Benedict XII. On page 68 of the Treatise, he is quoted thus:

        Pope Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus, 1336, ex cathedra, on the souls of the just receiving the Beatific Vision: "By this edict which will prevail forever, with apostolic authority we declare... the holy apostles, the martyrs, the confessors, virgins, and the other faithful who died after the holy baptism of Christ had been received by them, in whom there was nothing to be purged... and the souls of children departing before the use of free will, reborn and baptized in the same baptism of Christ, when all have been baptized... have been, are, and will be in heaven..."

        Once again, it must look persuasive, since only those "who died after the holy baptism of Christ" are spoken of in Heaven (martyrs included), wouldn't that be a claim that only the baptized are in Heaven, and that even the martyrs in Heaven were baptized (in water)? And once again, the ellipses conceal much that will change the whole tenor of this quote:

       
    Quote
    Pope Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus, 1336, ex cathedra, on the souls of the just receiving the Beatific Vision: "By this edict which will prevail forever, with apostolic authority we declare: That according to the common arrangement of God, souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ; also of the holy apostles, the martyrs, the confessors, virgins, and the other faithful who died after the holy baptism of Christ had been received by them, in whom there was nothing to be purged, when they departed, nor will there be when they shall depart also in the future; or if then there was or there will be anything to be purged in these when after their death they have been purged; and the souls of children departing before the use of free will, reborn and baptized in that same baptism of Christ, when all have been baptized, immediately after their death and that aforesaid purgation in those who were in need of a purgation of this kind, even before the resumption of their bodies and the general judgment after the ascension of our Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ, into heaven, have been, are, and will be in heaven, in the kingdom of heaven and in celestial paradise with Christ, united in the company of the holy angels, and after the passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ have seen and see the divine essence by intuitive vision, and even face to face, with no mediating creature..."


        What this shows here is that this is not a reference to being after their own personal baptism in water, but rather after the Law of Baptism had been received "by them" (the Church) and under its auspices, for the Pope compares them not to those who are unbaptized (after the Law of Baptism, i. e. the New Covenant) but to those who died before the Law of Baptism (before the passion of Christ, i. e. the Old Covenant). The infants (mentioned later in the quote) are of course a different and separate case, for indeed they must be baptized in water to attain the Beatific Vision, and hence specifically spoken here as having been "baptized in that same baptism of Christ," for in their case the only way to comply to the Law of Baptism would be baptism in water. Indeed the omission of any mention of their own being baptized (as there is for the infants) is clearly and consciously meant to allow that some small number of them had not been baptized in water though they are in no way any less blessed under the Law of Baptism.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #10 on: July 12, 2016, 02:40:47 PM »
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  • Trent decrees that "If anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation... let him be anathema."

    LoE says it like a broken record, so, let him be anathema because that is what he is, because that is what he wants to be.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 05:33:53 AM »
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  • No one can deny that the "brothers" are liars and cannot be trusted to present accurate "proofs" for their heresy which the ignorant fall for.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 07:12:17 AM »
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  • Look, LoT, this stuff is getting pretty old.  We need to stay on topic with threads, and threads need to remain very narrow.  Every single one of these threads expands very quickly into a generic 155-page Cushing vs. Feeney debate.  Single arguments and points quickly get submerged.  Someone makes an argument, and then you paste an entire rambling 5-page pro BoD article into the mix.  You're blowing up all these threads.  And I'm starting to think that you're doing it entirely on purpose ... just to chaff up the BoD threads.  Please stop this.

    So, for instance, if someone starts a thread about the argument that St. Alphonsus' BoD concept that people would still be subject to temporal punishment contradicts Trent, then stay on topic and address that point and that point only.  You tend to respond by pasting in a 5-page article promoting BoD.  You're ruining this forum.

    So, for instance, some threads might be:

    Was there unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers in favor of BoD?

    Did Trent teach BoD?

    What does it mean that most modern theologians promote BoD?

    Under what conditions can one receive BoD?

    Is explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation necessary for supernatural faith and salvation?

    Then stay on topic, arguing that point and only that point.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 07:27:06 AM »
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  • My point is we should not use people who have been proven to be intellectually dishonest as a source for Catholic theology.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 07:30:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Look, LoT, this stuff is getting pretty old.  We need to stay on topic with threads, and threads need to remain very narrow.  Every single one of these threads expands very quickly into a generic 155-page Cushing vs. Feeney debate.  Single arguments and points quickly get submerged.  Someone makes an argument, and then you paste an entire rambling 5-page pro BoD article into the mix.  You're blowing up all these threads.  And I'm starting to think that you're doing it entirely on purpose ... just to chaff up the BoD threads.  Please stop this.

    So, for instance, if someone starts a thread about the argument that St. Alphonsus' BoD concept that people would still be subject to temporal punishment contradicts Trent, then stay on topic and address that point and that point only.  You tend to respond by pasting in a 5-page article promoting BoD.  You're ruining this forum.

    So, for instance, some threads might be:

    Was there unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers in favor of BoD?

    Did Trent teach BoD?

    What does it mean that most modern theologians promote BoD?

    Under what conditions can one receive BoD?

    Is explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation necessary for supernatural faith and salvation?

    Then stay on topic, arguing that point and only that point.


    Also the Feeneyites are rightly associated with Feeney but those aligned with the Catholic Church on BOB/D should not be aligned with Cushing.  You could call us a Pius XII ite or a Catholicite if you like.  Or even a BODer.  But calling us a Cushingite is an underhanded guilt by associate tactic.  And is not the same as calling those who follow Feeney's teaching Feeneyites.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church