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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 32256 times)

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #305 on: February 15, 2021, 02:34:35 PM »
The first is the passage in the preparatory draft, and the second is the passage in the final draft.  The Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini in the link above contains the preparatory and final drafts.

Latin
Preparatory:  "...quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur..."
Final:   "...Quae quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto fieri non potest...""


English
Preparatory:  "...this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
Final:  "...This translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #306 on: February 15, 2021, 03:03:51 PM »
The first is the passage in the preparatory draft, and the second is the passage in the final draft.  The Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini in the link above contains the preparatory and final drafts.

Latin
Preparatory:  "...quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur..."
Final:   "...Quae quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto fieri non potest...""


English
Preparatory:  "...this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
Final:  "...This translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
While this does help add context to what they may have meant, it's important to remember that preparatory drafts aren't infallible. It could just be that the sentence was reworded but they still meant what they had written in the draft, or perhaps they changed it explicitly to change the meaning, or even that Providence ensured that they rendered it differently. 


Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #307 on: February 15, 2021, 03:06:46 PM »
The first is the passage in the preparatory draft, and the second is the passage in the final draft.  The Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini in the link above contains the preparatory and final drafts.

Latin
Preparatory:  "...quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur..."
Final:   "...Quae quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto fieri non potest...""


English
Preparatory:  "...this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
Final:  "...This translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
So the first draft said justification is effected by the sacrament or the desire thereof, whereas the final draft, which is the dogma itself, says justification cannot be effected without the sacrament......or the desire thereof.

This only means justification cannot be obtained without the sacrament, nor can justification be obtained without the desire for the sacrament. I've been trying to tell you that the whole time.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #308 on: February 15, 2021, 04:01:48 PM »
Doesn't Trent, Session VI, Chapter IV include infants among those for whom regeneration via baptism is necessary? The prior Session talked about original sin and specifically mentioned infants and their need for being reborn in Christ as well as adults. And indeed within Session VI there is discussion of the condemnation in Adam being passed on to men by merely being born. 

How then can the "or the desire of" refer to a necessary disposition for baptism which must be conjoined with the water of the sacrament when some of those of whom it is speaking do not require that desire or disposition, and therefore the linkage of desire to the water is not necessary for them?

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #309 on: February 17, 2021, 09:52:42 AM »
Xavier answeredYes, I reject it. I confess the Athanasian Creed, in the sense St. Athanasius, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus etc did.

Last Tradhican asked: ....People's opinions are not so important to me. What is important is to pinpoint the big picture of what they believe. All I want to know is what you believe. I asked you a simple question above and you answered it above.  Then I gave you examples of what you said that you reject (salvation by implicit faith) and all I need to know is just if you reject them too. But I never received a response: 


Do you reject these examples of salvation by implicit faith, the teaching that non-Catholics can be saved
by their belief in a god that rewards?:


From the book  Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre:

1. Page 216: “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.  There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

2.Page 217: “One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”

Pages 217-218: “This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned.  It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church:  ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’  When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell.  Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  This must be preached.”

Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006: “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)
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