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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 32257 times)

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #210 on: February 10, 2021, 11:53:44 AM »
Ladislaus, I asked you a question earlier in the thread. Can you please answer it: "Do you deny what the Church says that Holy Scripture teaches or do you affirm it?"

Here are the sources I cited:

Catechism of Pope St. Pius X: "Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized: 17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Baltimore Catechism, Approved by His Holiness Pope Leo XIII: Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

See the sources: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286
And: http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm

As for Cornelius, St. Augustine says: "For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled with the Holy Spirit; Acts 10:44 Simon, even after baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14084.htm

St. Thomas says: "So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues." See: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4069.htm

I already cited Fr. Haydock where Church-approved sources have clearly taught these for centuries. You reject all these many sources.

I don't care what Rahner says. I care what real scholars like St. Robert Bellarmine say. St. Robert says the Baptism of Desire was not absolutely certain at first, but now is, having been settled by the Church. After Trent, he says it most certainly is to be believed.

Baptism of Blood was plainly taught by numerous Fathers. Baptism of Desire was disputed till the Middle Ages. You need to show some sources that it can still be licitly disputed today by Catholics. I contest that. The Popes and the Church have settled the question.

Please cite some of those manuals you claim referred to BOD as a disputed question after Trent. Until then, all Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus in teaching that Trent teaches that souls can be justified and saved by Baptism of Desire. Benedictus Deus forbids Catholics from issuing their own private unauthorized interpretations of the decrees of Trent, whereas St. Alphonsus' was authorized.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #211 on: February 10, 2021, 12:33:58 PM »
Ladislaus, I asked you a question earlier in the thread. Can you please answer it: "Do you deny what the Church says that Holy Scripture teaches or do you affirm it?"

Here are the sources I cited:

Catechism of Pope St. Pius X: "Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized: 17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Baltimore Catechism, Approved by His Holiness Pope Leo XIII: Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

See the sources: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286
And: http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm

As for Cornelius, St. Augustine says: "For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled with the Holy Spirit; Acts 10:44 Simon, even after baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14084.htm

St. Thomas says: "So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues." See: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4069.htm

I already cited Fr. Haydock where Church-approved sources have clearly taught these for centuries. You reject all these many sources.

I don't care what Rahner says. I care what real scholars like St. Robert Bellarmine say. St. Robert says the Baptism of Desire was not absolutely certain at first, but now is, having been settled by the Church. After Trent, he says it most certainly is to be believed.

Baptism of Blood was plainly taught by numerous Fathers. Baptism of Desire was disputed till the Middle Ages. You need to show some sources that it can still be licitly disputed today by Catholics. I contest that. The Popes and the Church have settled the question.

Please cite some of those manuals you claim referred to BOD as a disputed question after Trent. Until then, all Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus in teaching that Trent teaches that souls can be justified and saved by Baptism of Desire. Benedictus Deus forbids Catholics from issuing their own private unauthorized interpretations of the decrees of Trent, whereas St. Alphonsus' was authorized.
You have an explanation to give.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #212 on: February 10, 2021, 12:52:17 PM »
Indeed, I'm not sure why they repeatedly need to "prove" that St. Thomas, for instance, believed in BoD.  We clearly grant this.  So why do they insist on re-spamming the same quotes over and over again?
As LT said, it seems obvious the reason is that "they know nothing about the subject except that they can't accept that a "nice" non-Catholic will go to hell".

It can only be for the above same reason that they constantly raise the authority of fallible saints and catechisms, over the infallible teaching of the Church. Seems they think that by constantly referencing the lesser authority as if they are the greatest authority, that they are able to get by and avoid the whole issue of their own personal belief, while striving to get others to do the same.  

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #213 on: February 10, 2021, 03:06:10 PM »
Ladislaus, I asked you a question earlier in the thread. Can you please answer it: "Do you deny what the Church says that Holy Scripture teaches or do you affirm it?"

Of course I deny it.  I've denied it many times.  What's your authority, the Baltimore catechism?

Now, answer my question.  Do you hold that there's a dogmatic consensus of the Church Fathers in favor of BoD?

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #214 on: February 10, 2021, 03:32:07 PM »
Now, answer my question.  Do you hold that there's a dogmatic consensus of the Church Fathers in favor of BoD?
Readers will notice that Ladislaus answers all questions quickly and in short responses (as do all people that are not hiding something).

Good luck getting a direct answer from the "nice non-Catholics will saved" types. Getting a straight answer from them occupies having to bear with their never ending new threads and months, reams, of the same quotes over and over, till they finally just leave, only to come back a few months later and repeat the process.  They never answer the truth, that they just believe that nice non-Catholics will be saved, somehow.