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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 32188 times)

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #185 on: February 09, 2021, 12:14:33 PM »
Nonsense.  Just because the Church authorized the teachings of St. Alphonsus doesn't mean that every teaching of his has Magisterial force.  We have a fair number of theologians who disagree with a fair number of things taught by St. Alphonsus.  Doctors disagreed with each other.

There are theology manuals used in seminaries after Trent which characterized BoD as a disputed question.
I still think Stubborn's mentality is super problematic though.  It basically amounts to "All these saints were just dumb and didn't read Trent."

Its like Sola Scriptura with magisterial docuмents

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #186 on: February 09, 2021, 12:24:54 PM »
I do believe, with St. Alphonsus, that denying BOD itself is at least a mortal sin, and likely heretical in itself, since the Church has clearly taught it. 

You can believe that, but I and many others believe you're dead wrong.  It's simply incorrect that the Church clearly taught it.  It's clear that the Church has tolerated various flavors of it, but it's not been defined or explained or proposed for belief Magisterially.  Finding a mere mention of it here or there is not the same as proposing it for belief.  Various expository narrative portions of Councils don't intend to define every word.  Again, Trent does nothing more than state that justification cannot happen without the desire for it.


Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #187 on: February 09, 2021, 12:54:20 PM »
Apologies if this topic has already been broached earlier in the thread, since I know you guys discussed double predestination, but in a quick glance I didn't find an answer to this in particular:

How does the death of an unbaptised infant not equate to double predestination? I saw it mentioned that the damnation of invincibly ignorant adults isn't double predestination because, through adhering to the natural law and corresponding to God's graces, they may be given a chance to convert. But an infant doesn't get that opportunity. I know they aren't sent to the Hell of the damned, but wouldn't such a child still have been predestined to not go to Heaven? I know Heaven is a reward and not a right, but it's still Biblical and Church teaching that God wills all men to be saved. So why would He bring into being a soul who had no opportunity to be? Even if an unbaptised infant is not damned, per se, they certainly aren't saved, nor had they any chance to be.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #188 on: February 09, 2021, 01:23:55 PM »
The Church has condemned your false interpretation of Trent.
The Church has condemned her own teaching is what you are saying.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;... let him be anathema.

I say Trent says that the sacraments are necessary unto salvation - PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW MY INTERPRETATION IS FALSE.


the canon continues:

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

I say Trent says without the sacrament there can be no justification and without the desire for the sacrament there can be no justification. Again - PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW MY INTERPRETATION IS FALSE.

If you cannot explain how my interpretation is false, stop making the false claim.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #189 on: February 09, 2021, 01:24:06 PM »
Apologies if this topic has already been broached earlier in the thread, since I know you guys discussed double predestination, but in a quick glance I didn't find an answer to this in particular:

How does the death of an unbaptised infant not equate to double predestination? I saw it mentioned that the damnation of invincibly ignorant adults isn't double predestination because, through adhering to the natural law and corresponding to God's graces, they may be given a chance to convert. But an infant doesn't get that opportunity. I know they aren't sent to the Hell of the damned, but wouldn't such a child still have been predestined to not go to Heaven? I know Heaven is a reward and not a right, but it's still Biblical and Church teaching that God wills all men to be saved. So why would He bring into being a soul who had no opportunity to be? Even if an unbaptised infant is not damned, per se, they certainly aren't saved, nor had they any chance to be.

It's key that they are not sent to Hell.  Human beings not only have no right in justice to the Beatific Vision, but we even lack the natural capacity to enjoy it.  It's a free gift of God.  So there's no natural deprivation in Limbo, the same thing that accounts for their natural happiness.  I believe that this is an act of God's Mercy and that all infants who die without Baptism were likely headed to Hell, and it was an act of God's Mercy to give them eternal natural happiness instead.