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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 32278 times)

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Offline Comrade

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #170 on: February 09, 2021, 08:26:59 AM »
Thanks, Ladislaus, for that excellent description of discerning if BoD was revealed. Also, for your "objective" heretic example. I come across more Traditional Catholics who support the "implicit" faith than supporting "explicit". I think this perverse idea lies at the heart of Vatican II.

Of course, I am always interested in a good argument and would love to see to a kind rebuttal from an "implict" BoD supporter.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #171 on: February 09, 2021, 08:39:12 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on February 09, 2021, 06:51:27 AM
God's Providence arranges all things to the good of His elect.  To claim that He saves some people by BoD implies that He wills that some people should be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  But God has revealed otherwise, so this theological speculation is on shaky ground at best.
There are 100's of examples of the unbaptized dead being brought back to life just to be baptized, then they immediately die again.
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #172 on: February 09, 2021, 09:02:06 AM »
Baptism of Desire itself is God's Providence for His elect, just like Perfect Contrition, in which the desire for the Sacrament of Penance is implicit, is God's Providence for those to whom access to a Priest is morally or physically impossible at the moment. People want everything for themselves (e.g. forgiveness through contrition when a Priest is not available), yet stubbornly resist God's clearly revealed Will to save some souls by giving them the Sacramental Effect of both Baptism and Penance in voto only. God can do as He chooses, and is not bound to give His grace through the visible Sacraments only. The example of the Good Thief, the penitent Magdalene, Cornelius etc all confirm this. Baptism and Penance are both necessary in the same way: in fact or in desire. See Canon Law.

St. Bonaventure is another Doctor of the Church who taught Baptism of Desire, as is St. Bernard: In Sent. IV, d.4,P.2,a.I,q.I: “God obliges no one to do the impossible and therefore it must be admitted that the baptism of desire without the baptism of water is sufficient, provided the person in question has the will to receive the baptism of water, but is prevented from doing so before he dies."

Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught Baptism of Desire to St. Catherine of Sienna: Dialogue of St. Catherine: "I wished thee to see the secret of the Heart, showing it to thee open, so that you mightest see how much more I loved than I could show thee by finite pain. I poured from it Blood and Water, to show thee the baptism of water which is received in virtue of the Blood. I also showed the baptism of love in two ways, first in those who are baptized in their blood shed for Me which has virtue through My Blood, even if they have not been able to have Holy Baptism, and also those who are baptized in fire, not being able to have Holy Baptism, but desiring it with the affection of love. There is no baptism of desire without the Blood, because Blood is steeped in and kneaded with the fire of Divine charity, because through love was it shed.

Lastly, Baptism of Desire doesn't mean non-Catholics are saved; rather, it means those who are Justified by Baptism of Desire, and are foreknown by God to persevere in the State of Grace until death, will also be given the Grace to embrace the Catholic Faith before the end of their lives. Everyone in Heaven believed in and loves Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, venerates Mother Mary as Queen of Heaven etc. There are no non-Catholics in Heaven. Before departing this life, known to God alone sometimes, they must have explicitly believed at least in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation.

This is taught by Fr. Mueller in a Catechism approved by Rome: "Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.
Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved."

The doctrine on the Soul of the Church is also taught by His Holiness Pope St. Pius X in his Catechism. Pope Pius XII also mentions it.
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Offline Carissima

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #173 on: February 09, 2021, 09:29:22 AM »
Ladislaus said:
“I think that this opinion that you articulated is the reason that the Dimond brothers have gone to the extreme of rejecting BoD as heretical.”

I definitely don’t agree with the Dimond bros or their anathemas and excommunications of Catholics. The Dimond’s have errors too. Which is why I stick with the simplicity of believing that ‘God’s Elect obtain Sacramental Baptism, which Christ taught us is through ‘water and The Holy Ghost.’
The issue here is that Catholics want to teach there are other ways. Once they do this, they open up doors to other possibilities that could be heretical and therefore mislead people. Of course with God anything is possible, but we are taking upon ourselves the risk of spreading heresy by teaching there are other avenues for obtaining Salvation. Yes, Doctors of the Church discussed these things but they are not unanimous. So we as Catholics, who are not theologians (i.e Fr Pfeiffer, Dimond bro’s, Lefebvre) should instead be teaching Salvation through Sacramental Baptism, and leave the individual Justification of Souls to God.

Something I use for teaching my children is the case of ‘Borneo Bob’. Indigenous people with supposedly no access to missionaries or Sacraments. If one must hope in God’s Providence for these poor souls, we should believe then that God could send someone to baptize those souls before they die, even if it be an Angel from Heaven (though with God, a missionary could get there just as easily) 
This way then we continue to maintain the importance of; The Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for Salvation.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #174 on: February 09, 2021, 09:53:45 AM »
Quote from: XavierSem on February 09, 2021, 09:02:06 AM
Baptism of Desire itself is God's Providence for His elect, just like Perfect Contrition, in which the desire for the Sacrament of Penance is implicit, is God's Providence for those to whom access to a Priest is morally or physically impossible at the moment.....
We can post reams of saints teaching otherwise than what the writer above posted, so, it boils down to what one believes and no amount of logic is going to convince him otherwise (or those like him).

The bottom line in my years of debating with Implicit Faith'ers (those who believe Muslim, Hindus, Buddhist, Jҽωs... indeed anyone in any religion, can be saved without explicit desire to be a Catholic) is that deep down they believe as I posted previously, and to which Ladislaus added:


Quote
Last Tradhican wrote - Who is the author of life and death? To the believers in BOD & BOB of any kind, one comes to life by chance and dies by chance. To the believer in BOD & BOB, a person learns the faith and gets baptized by his own work. Therefore, to the believer in BOD & BOB, a person could go all the way to the baptismal font by his own volition, and if he was by chance killed, he would be saved by his desire.

Ladislaus added -  God's Providence arranges all things to the good of His elect.  To claim that He saves some people by BoD implies that He wills that some people should be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  But God has revealed otherwise, so this theological speculation is on shaky ground at best

I do not believe in BOD & BOB because I believe that God is the author of life and death, and no one is born at a time and the place where they are born by coincidence (for instance, in pre-Columbian Americas) and no one can even begin to seek the true faith without God's Grace, let alone go all the way up to the baptismal font. And God can allow a person to live 100 years if that is what is required for the baptism.

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)
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