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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 32317 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #255 on: February 11, 2021, 10:52:34 AM »
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Last Trad:
I believe that type of person is feelings oriented, artsy type, that does not possess the ability to build a structure. Does not possess the ability to see the relationships among the modules of a system that give rise to a whole that cannot be understood by analyzing its constituent parts.


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Stubborn said:
Unwittingly, the writer finally clearly reveals his real belief which is that "God can provide the Sacrament wherever and whenever He chooses. And He can also provide forgiveness through Perfect Contrition wherever and whenever He chooses", that the sacraments and the Church are not necessary.

Exactly, Last Trad.  XavierSem is a perfect example of a sentimental person who does not (and maybe cannot) see the bad consequences of his bad logic.  As Stubborn points out, the end result of the argument is either:
1) the Church/sacraments aren't necessary (i.e. a catholic version of Martin Luther's "faith = salvation")...or
2) the Church/sacraments can be had by almost everyone internally/by desire, which makes the VISIBLE Church/sacraments/membership optional (i.e. the Modernist Rahner's αnσnymσus christian lie).
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The end result is the same:  a religious, universal brotherhood of "christian" people - a global, one-world religion.  Which is what satan/modernists want, as a precursor to the anti-christ.

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #256 on: February 11, 2021, 10:59:00 AM »
I'm supposed to debate four or five Dimondite dissenters who won't even clearly say whether they are Dimondites, or Feeneyites, or whether they agree with one of the Doctors St. Augustine, or St. Ambrose, or St. Thomas, or St. Alphonsus, St. Robert etc. I challenge any Dimondite/Feeneyite to (1) first of all explain what he believes and he is defending, Dimondism, or Fr. Feeney's opinion, or the qualified position of St. Benedict's Centre and (2) secondly, to engage in a one-on-one debate with me, on one particular topic. 

I've clearly explained what I believe. Those Justified by Baptism of Desire, before they obtain the Grace of Final Perseverance, will be given the Grace to embrace the Catholic Faith, and so be saved as Christians, believing explicitly at least the Trinity and Incarnation.

Now, what do you believe, Last Tradhican? Are you a Dimondite or a Feeneyite? Do you agree with St. Benedicts' Centre?

Stubborn, you betray an unCatholic attitude. A Catholic always says: "This is what I think; nevertheless, if I'm mistaken and the Church corrects me, I retract my opinion and submit to the judgment of the Church". Benedictus Deus is certainly relevant to your attempted interpretations, even if you claim you are not interpreting Trent, just like Protestants claim they are only "allowing the Bible to speak for itself" when teaching some false Protestant idea. The Doctors give the Papally-authorized interpretation of Trent, and no one has shown even post-Tridentine source that denies Baptism of Desire, or even points to it as a disputed question.

I've already explained Trent: Trent uses Voto for Baptism, Penance and the Eucharist to show that the Effects of Three Sacraments can be received in desire. It expressly implies that the Desire of Two Sacraments obtains the Grace of Justification. Otherwise, there was no need to add that qualifier, "or the desire thereof", it would have simply said, "without Baptism of Water only". If someone says, I cannot quench my thirst without water, or at least some juice", a logical implication is that the juice would substitute for the water. 

All the Doctors and Church authorities have interpreted Trent this way. I cannot help you if you think you know better than them all.

Ladislaus, can you answer my question to you: Show me even one manual, post-Trent, that refers to BoD as a disputed question?

Irish Catechism was not Papally-approved nor universal. The opinion that infants suffer in hell never received Papal endorsement.

Baptism of Desire is defined by St. Alphonsus, Pope Leo XIII and Pope St. Pius X. "An act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the Desire, explicit or implicit, for Baptism of Water".

Pope Innocent III did not say the Priest went directly to Heaven - he in fact expressly said, "in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned". The same applies to the Emperor Valentian. St. Ambrose says he received God's Grace, and God's Spirit, and then proceeds to pray for him. He would not have prayed for him if he had just been Baptized, or even if he had received martyrdom. The early Church knew, as St. Augustine said, "He does an injury to a martyr who prays for him". So St. Ambrose praying for Valentian shows the Doctor knew the Emperor was in Purgatory. St. Ambrose isn't God, but God can and does enlighten His Popes and Saints about the departed.

What else? No, I didn't contradict St. Alphonsus. Baptism of Desire is an act of love of God, and in Martyrdom, Martyrdom itself is the act of love of God. That is why Martyrdom avails even for infants, as the Liturgical Tradition of the Holy Innocents infallibly proves.

Number your questions to me if you want further answers. Or start a new thread between the two of us alone for polite discussion.

God Bless.


Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #257 on: February 11, 2021, 11:08:51 AM »
I'm supposed to debate four or five Dimondite dissenters who won't even clearly say whether they are Dimondites, or Feeneyites, ....

The writer above has no common sense, no order, no structure, now he is just lashing out, going off on a tangent of calling people by "ites".

There is only one subject to discuss here, his belief which he has spelled out:


Quote
the writer finally clearly reveals his real belief which is that "God can provide the Sacrament wherever and whenever He chooses. And He can also provide forgiveness through Perfect Contrition wherever and whenever He chooses", that the sacraments and the Church are not necessary.


Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #258 on: February 11, 2021, 11:35:33 AM »
Quote from: XavierSem on February 09, 2021, 11:01:09 AM
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God can provide the Sacrament wherever and whenever He chooses.


Ladislaus responded - Right, this is basic "God is omnipotent" 101 and "with God all things are possible."  Since God CAN do either one with equal ease, why do you suppose that God would will that some of His elect NOT receive the Sacrament?  Why would He withhold it from them?  Didn't Our Lord teach that if you seek/ask/desire for something, that you would receive it?  So if this desire were strong enough to be hypothetically efficacious for justification, then why would it not be strong enough to be efficacious for receiving the Sacrament, as per Our Lord's promise?

This is a positive step to acknowledge that God cannot be constrained by "impossibility" ... as most BoDers imply.

So God revealed that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary by a necessity of means for salvation, and could easily provide it to anyone, but then decides to withhold it and then save someone without it when He could just as easily grant it?  This just doesn't compute.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #259 on: February 11, 2021, 11:55:49 AM »
I'm supposed to debate four or five Dimondite dissenters who won't even clearly say whether they are Dimondites, or Feeneyites, or

Stubborn, you betray an unCatholic attitude. A Catholic always says: "This is what I think; nevertheless, if I'm mistaken and the Church corrects me....
No debate, you are supposed simply answer clear questions with clear answers. I did not ask what Catholics who do not understand a doctrine always say first.

The Church is not correcting me nor anyone who agrees with the Church's infallible definitions - you are not 1) answering my questions and 2) not making any sense.


CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;... let him be anathema.

I say Trent says that the sacraments are necessary unto salvation - PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW MY INTERPRETATION IS FALSE.
IN YOUR OWN WORDS, WHAT DO YOU THINK THESE WORDS OF TRENT ACTUALLY MEAN?


the canon continues:

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

I say Trent says without the sacrament there can be no justification and without the desire for the sacrament there can be no justification. Again - PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW MY INTERPRETATION IS FALSE.
IN YOUR OWN WORDS, WHAT DO YOU THINK THESE WORDS OF TRENT ACTUALLY MEAN?


If you do not have it in you to answer my clear questions, THEN SAY SO.