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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 26035 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #225 on: February 10, 2021, 06:34:55 PM »
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  • Karl Rahner:
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    But, let us say, a Buddhist monk (or anyone else I might suppose) who, because he follows his conscience, attains salvation and lives in the grace of God; of him I must say that he is an αnσnymσus Christian; if not, I would have to presuppose that there is a genuine path to salvation that really attains that goal, but that simply has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. But I cannot do that. And so if I hold if everyone depends upon Jesus Christ for salvation, and if at the same time I hold that many live in the world who have not expressly recognized Jesus Christ, then there remains in my opinion nothing else but to take up this postulate of an αnσnymσus Christianity.

    Archbishop Lefebvre:
    Quote
    God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

    The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion.  They are saved in their religion but not by it.

    +Lefebvre even claims that these infidels become "PART" of the Church.  That is a very grave error.  What then separate his ecclesiology from that of Vatican II, both of whom believe in a Frankenchurch which includes not only Catholics but even heretics and infidels.

    And this part here is downright scandalous:
    Quote
    Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”

    So this man ardently desired Baptism, and +Lefebvre basically told him he didn't need it ... which could serve no other purpose than to, ironically, weaken and undermine his ardent desire for Baptism ... an irony famously pointed out by Fr. Feeney, that BoDers turn people's desire for Baptism into a desire for the desire of Baptism.

    So the appropriate response would be either to train some people who remained there how to perform Baptism in the case of an emergency, reassure the souls that if he continued to ardently desire the Sacrament, God would not deny it to him (ask and you shall receive).  Frankly, I would have immєdιαtely baptized the man, declaring "I have not found faith as strong as this in most of the Catholic Church."  In fact, this man had more faith than most Catholics, and, sadly, even more than Archbishop Lefebvre himself on this particular point at least.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #226 on: February 10, 2021, 06:42:39 PM »
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  • Oh, with regard to St. Ambrose, right before the oft-cited passage regarding Valentinian, St. Ambrose mentions that the people listening were deeply grieved by the fact that Valentinian died without Baptism.  These people were catechized and taught by St. Ambrose.  Where do we think they got this idea that death without the Sacrament was a horrible tragedy ... if not from St. Ambrose himself?  Why would they be so upset at his death without Baptism, if they felt there was hope of salvation without it?


    Offline andy

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #227 on: February 10, 2021, 08:26:17 PM »
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  • So the appropriate response would be either to train some people who remained there how to perform Baptism in the case of an emergency, reassure the souls that if he continued to ardently desire the Sacrament, God would not deny it to him (ask and you shall receive).  Frankly, I would have immєdιαtely baptized the man, declaring "I have not found faith as strong as this in most of the Catholic Church."  In fact, this man had more faith than most Catholics, and, sadly, even more than Archbishop Lefebvre himself on this particular point at least.
    There is a book "Tales of Foreign Lands" by rev. Spillmann, SJ , in the story "Maron" written in 1907 (available via Angelus Press),  where a young boy Ali lives along christians and slowly learns about the Faith. All the circuмstances are far from ideal, they constantly face death and prosecution. It it is a process, he professes the Faith first, a bit later actually refuses to be baptized and finally when he is ready he gets baptized. The author does not mention BoD or potential BoB, however the concept seems to be implied between the lines.
    Also, it seems that the church never rushed the baptism itself, staying confident and full of hope that it is better to prepare  catechumens than later deal with partially formed souls. There must be the reason for that, moreover no fear of missing the train to the Salvation.
    I have heard somewhere, that it is better for a soul of a good-willed-person to die without a baptism then be baptized and waste its life. This is why the church insists on full Catholic upbringing and refuses to baptize children where there are no prospects of a catholic environment.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #228 on: February 10, 2021, 09:10:04 PM »
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  • There is a book "Tales of Foreign Lands" by rev. Spillmann, SJ , in the story "Maron" written in 1907 (available via Angelus Press),  where a young boy Ali lives along christians and slowly learns about the Faith. All the circuмstances are far from ideal, they constantly face death and prosecution. It it is a process, he professes the Faith first, a bit later actually refuses to be baptized and finally when he is ready he gets baptized. The author does not mention BoD or potential BoB, however the concept seems to be implied between the lines.
    Also, it seems that the church never rushed the baptism itself, staying confident and full of hope that it is better to prepare  catechumens than later deal with partially formed souls. There must be the reason for that, moreover no fear of missing the train to the Salvation.
    I have heard somewhere, that it is better for a soul of a good-willed-person to die without a baptism then be baptized and waste its life. This is why the church insists on full Catholic upbringing and refuses to baptize children where there are no prospects of a catholic environment.

    Oh, I get that the Church doesn't typically rush Baptism, per the reasons actually stated by the Catechism of the Council of Trent.  But those are the reasons +Lefebvre should have given this anxious soul, that if you have the right dispositions, God will preserve you to Baptism.  And then make sure people are trained in how to baptize in case the person does suddenly fall ill or has an accident or something.  Instead, +Lefebvre basically tells him that he doesn't really need Baptism, that he's already in a state of grace (I'm not sure how he'd know that).

    My comment about baptizing him right there was more tongue-in-cheek a reference to the fact that this man seems to have had a stronger faith than most Catholics during that era.  That was a time of rampant universal denial regarding the necessity of Baptism for salvation, one with which +Lefebvre himself was, alas, infected.  But because that junk had crept in BEFORE Vatican II, +Lefebvre didn't notice it as part of the problem, with an implicit 50s-ism, believing that all was good before Vatican II.  As we saw with the saga of Father Feeney, all was not well.

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #229 on: February 10, 2021, 09:21:37 PM »
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  • In the Angelus Press book, "Preparation for Confirmation ", Part II, Section II, question 10.

    10. Is Confirmation necessary for salvation?

    Answer: Confirmation is not, unlike Baptism, ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY  for salvation. But all Catholics ought to receive it if they have the opportunity,  as it confers a sacrament.

    Just can't make this stuff up......
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #230 on: February 10, 2021, 09:34:59 PM »
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  • In the Angelus Press book, "Preparation for Confirmation ", Part II, Section II, question 10.

    10. Is Confirmation necessary for salvation?

    Answer: Confirmation is not, unlike Baptism, ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY  for salvation. But all Catholics ought to receive it if they have the opportunity,  as it confers a sacrament.

    Just can't make this stuff up......

    Now that you pointed it out, the Angelus Press will have to put it under editorial review.


    Revised Answer: Confirmation is not ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for salvation, but either (wishing, bleeding or water) Baptisms are necessary for salvation.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #231 on: February 10, 2021, 09:57:36 PM »
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  • Now that you pointed it out, the Angelus Press will have to put it under editorial review.


    Revised Answer: Confirmation is not ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for salvation, but either (wishing, bleeding or water) Baptisms are necessary for salvation.
    Well, their Christian Warfare book has the Divine Mercy chaplet in it, so they have some work to do.
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline andy

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #232 on: February 10, 2021, 11:25:57 PM »
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  • Well, their Christian Warfare book has the Divine Mercy chaplet in it, so they have some work to do.
    Is it for real? What year/page it is on? I will check next time I am in the bookstore (I do not own that book).


    Offline andy

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #233 on: February 10, 2021, 11:28:35 PM »
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  • Instead, +Lefebvre basically tells him that he doesn't really need Baptism, that he's already in a state of grace (I'm not sure how he'd know that).
    May I ask for a source/reference?

    Offline Catholic Ram

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #234 on: February 10, 2021, 11:35:26 PM »
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  • Well, their Christian Warfare book has the Divine Mercy chaplet in it, so they have some work to do.
    In essence, what's the difference between the "divine mercy" and the "Fatima prayer" ("...lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who have most need of your mercy."). The latter almost sounds like a forerunner to the former.

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #235 on: February 10, 2021, 11:48:38 PM »
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  • Is it for real? What year/page it is on? I will check next time I am in the bookstore (I do not own that book).
    2009 pocket edition,  page 122 I believe. Its in the section, ironically, of the Sacred Heart.
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #236 on: February 11, 2021, 12:00:19 AM »
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  • Well, you'd be surprised how little time theologians actually spent on BoD.  Very few even mention it, and those who do typically mention it in passing, simply repeating the notion that it exists.  Things get perpetuated through repetition unless someone takes the time to "dig into" an issue and look at the source material.  Very few theologians cared that much about this question to do original research, simply taking this conclusion for granted due to lack of time or interest to look into it.  So, no, they weren't "dumb".  They just didn't care that much about it by and large and didn't spent a lot of their time on it.  Father Cekada did a survey of all the theologians' opinions on BoD and he could only find about 20 (if I recall) in total, and the vast majority of it simply mentioned it in passing in a single sentence.

    In fact, from the about the 5th century, when St. Fulgentius explicitly rejected BoD, until St. Bernard, there isn't a single mention of it anywhere in extant Catholic writing.  It resurfaced with the proto-scholastics, Abelard and Hugh of St. Victor, who were debating separate sides of the issue.  Peter Lombard then wrote St. Bernard, asking for his opinion on the subject, and the latter TENTATIVELY went pro-BoD with the argument, "I'd rather be wrong with Augustine" than right on his own (a posture of humility).  He was evidently not aware that St. Augustine had forcefully retracted the opinion.  Had he known, he would have had to decide whether to be right with early Augustine or right with later Augustine.  Peter Lombard than put that opinion into the Sentences, which became the first scholastic theological treatise.  From there St. Thomas picked it up, and from him it spread ... due to his authority.
    To  be clear I'm not throwing accusations of heresy around or anything, but that still seems pretty sketch.  So the Church "just went with" this for eight centuries, basically. Like even if originally it was based on not knowing Augustine retracted, still seems strange that God would allow a lie to basically go unchallenged for that long.

    It seems more likely that BOD *at least* for catechumens is at least a possibility, though I realize St Benedict Center currently takes a more moderate position of "in theory BOD is possible, but our personal opinion is that it doesn't actually happen" basically (that's a paraphrase)

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #237 on: February 11, 2021, 01:18:15 AM »
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  • Baltimore Catechism, Approved by His Holiness Pope Leo XIII: Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?

    A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.
    An honest question; 

    When would it ever be impossible for God to get the Sacrament of Baptism to a soul before they die? 
    And not just any Sacrament, but the one He requires for souls to be cleansed so they may enter into His Heavenly abode to be with Him forever?

    Do some believe that God sits on His throne in Heaven letting everything on Earth happen on it’s own or by chance?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #238 on: February 11, 2021, 04:11:21 AM »
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  • May I ask for a source/reference?

    It was quoted above.  Or do you mean that’s you want the source of the citation?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #239 on: February 11, 2021, 04:24:53 AM »
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  • To  be clear I'm not throwing accusations of heresy around or anything, but that still seems pretty sketch.  So the Church "just went with" this for eight centuries, basically. Like even if originally it was based on not knowing Augustine retracted, still seems strange that God would allow a lie to basically go unchallenged for that long.

    It seems more likely that BOD *at least* for catechumens is at least a possibility, though I realize St Benedict Center currently takes a more moderate position of "in theory BOD is possible, but our personal opinion is that it doesn't actually happen" basically (that's a paraphrase)

    This false notion of some bizarre extended infallibility of the Church has really clouded and polluted this issue.  For about the same period, about 700 years, all theologians also followed the Augustinian theory that unbaptized infants went to hell and suffered some pain there even if “mild”.  Later the Church rejected this teaching and made the doctrine of Limbo her own.  BTW, the first theologian to challenge this teaching was Abelard ... the same guy who was against Baptism of Desire.  This notion that no theological errors can ever become widely adopted by Catholics is absurd.  It was fabricated by Cekada and some of the dogmatic sedes (although the Dimonds have a balanced view).  Now, either the Thomists or Molinists are wrong ... but the Church has allowed both positions to flourish, meaning that the Church has tolerated error.  There are myriad examples of this throughout Church history.  BoD will one day be recognized as one of these.

    Some of the Cekadists here on CI have gone so far as to say that no book with an imprimatur can ever contain error, thereby equating some pamphlet written by Father Bob in Iowa with a solemn dogmatic teaching of a pope.  Their reasoning is that it is not possible for the Church to officially tolerate error.