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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 32305 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #205 on: February 10, 2021, 06:34:30 AM »
... they continue to quote the same saints and catechisms.

Indeed, I'm not sure why they repeatedly need to "prove" that St. Thomas, for instance, believed in BoD.  We clearly grant this.  So why do they insist on re-spamming the same quotes over and over again?

So, for instance, I pointed out that there was NO unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers on this issue, as MORE Fathers explicitly rejected BoD than who accepted it.

So Xavier chimes in, "St. Ambrose taught [BoD]".  I disputed that, and my argument was simply ignored.  Nevertheless, OK, even if I were to GRANT that St. Ambrose taught it, we still only have 1.5 Fathers who believed in it, with about 5 or 6 who explicitly rejected it, and the rest are silent.

Please either explain, based on that, how there's a dogmatic consensus of the Fathers in favor of this issue, or have the honesty -- as Rahner did -- to GRANT or CONCEDE that there's no dogmatic consensus of the Fathers on this issue.  Instead we get the LIE repeated that the Church Fathers taught BoD (as a group).

But that honesty of Rahner is not to be found among most proponents of BoD and, as you pointed out, Stubborn, that's typically prima facie evidence that they have already made up their minds for emotional reasons and are not willing to look at the issue objectively.

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #206 on: February 10, 2021, 10:26:07 AM »
Because of St Ambrose's ambiguity in this infamous quote, it forces us to look elsewhere in his writings for clarification.

St. Ambrose, De mysteriis, 390-391 A.D.:
“You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood, and the spirit; and if you withdraw any one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism is not valid.  For what is water without the cross of Christ?  A common element without any sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5]  Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace.”

St. Ambrose, The Duties of Clergy, 391 A.D.:
“The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood.  Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed he must circuмcise himself from his sins so that he can be saved;...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the Sacrament of Baptism.”

St. Ambrose, The Duties of Clergy, 391 A.D.:
Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’  No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.”

Unless one wants to make out one of the great doctors of the Church as some sort of schizophrenic, he cannot be pointed to as supporter of BOD.



Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #207 on: February 10, 2021, 10:36:49 AM »
Indeed, I'm not sure why they repeatedly need to "prove" that St. Thomas, for instance, believed in BoD.  We clearly grant this.  So why do they insist on re-spamming the same quotes over and over again?
They all do the same thing because they know nothing about the subject except that they can't accept that a "nice" non-Catholic will go to hell. (That does not apply to the rare case of the strict BODer who believes that a catechumen can be saved. However, that type never starts a thread on CI to argue about such a harmless belief).

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #208 on: February 10, 2021, 11:40:47 AM »

I'm reading through that second thread at the moment(started with that one, dunno why) and it's a very interesting read. Thank you. I'll get back to you when I've finished it.
Actually, that's the proper order. I should have told you anyway to read the second thread first. You got it right. 

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #209 on: February 10, 2021, 11:44:53 AM »
Also, where exactly does it say that Cornelius was justified before his Baptism?
 If you mean by "it" Scripture, a strong Scriptural argument could be made. But that is neither here nor there on a Trad Catholic forum where the Magisterium guides, or rather, governs.