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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 32246 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #175 on: February 09, 2021, 09:54:45 AM »
Baptism of Desire itself is God's Providence for His elect....
I wonder why you do not accept that if God can arrange for you to have been baptized, it is by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to be baptized. If one is going to do it, almighty God will give one the time to do it, and the water for doing it, and the minister for doing it - the same as He did for your baptism. There is nothing that is unforeseen to God, whether that be an accident or anything else.  

Do you not accept that it is God Who Provided the sacrament to all people since the promulgation of the Gospel who've ever been baptized?    
A BOD, as Trent says, is justification by faith alone, not Divine Providence, certainly not Divine Providence for His elect.

"There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water".

You will need to name only one instance or condition where God could not provide the sacrament to one who sincerely desires it before I would consider salvation via a BOD as being possible.


Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #176 on: February 09, 2021, 10:03:17 AM »
You need to be clear what you are arguing for first: This statement, by Fr. Feeney, ""There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water". is not the same as that of Fr. Wathen (who denies BOD even exists, calling it a "mythical non-Sacrament") or that of the Dimonds. I know Br. Andre Marie of St. Benedict's Centre, and I like him and respect his zeal to bring non-Catholics to the Faith and the Church. I don't consider St. Benedict's Centre's position to be heretical. I do believe, with St. Alphonsus, that denying BOD itself is at least a mortal sin, and likely heretical in itself, since the Church has clearly taught it. The Church has said Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus, ergo they can safely condemn BOD-deniers.

If you agree with St. Benedict's Centre, there would be no issue here. Do you? "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16."

https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

Someone who agrees with St. Benedict's Centre does not need to begin by arguing against all the Popes, Catechisms, Canon Law, Doctors etc.

Same question for Last Trad.


Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #177 on: February 09, 2021, 10:04:59 AM »
I wonder why you do not accept that if God can arrange for you to have been baptized, it is by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to be baptized. If one is going to do it, almighty God will give one the time (the era in which they are born, and the place. Example: France 1650) to do it, and the water for doing it, and the minister for doing it - the same as He did for your baptism. There is nothing that is unforeseen to God, whether that be an accident or anything else.  
my addition in bold

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #178 on: February 09, 2021, 10:10:17 AM »
You need to be clear what you are arguing for first: This statement, by Fr. Feeney, ""There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water". is not the same as that of Fr. Wathen (who denies BOD even exists, calling it a "mythical non-Sacrament") or that of the Dimonds. I know Br. Andre Marie of St. Benedict's Centre, and I like him and respect his zeal to bring non-Catholics to the Faith and the Church. I don't consider St. Benedict's Centre's position to be heretical. I do believe, with St. Alphonsus, that denying BOD itself is at least a mortal sin, and likely heretical in itself, since the Church has clearly taught it. The Church has said Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus, ergo they can safely condemn BOD-deniers.

If you agree with St. Benedict's Centre, there would be no issue here. Do you? "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16."

https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

Someone who agrees with St. Benedict's Centre does not need to begin by arguing against all the Popes, Catechisms, Canon Law, Doctors etc.

Same question for Last Trad.
All I asked for was one instance or condition where God could not provide the sacrament.

I agree with the Council of Trent, who teaches 1) the sacraments are necessary for salvation and 2) no desire for the sacrament = no justification. We all agree a BOD is not a sacrament, so immediately there's that.

How is it possible to take "no desire = no justification" to "desire = salvation"? Can you explain that?

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #179 on: February 09, 2021, 10:11:42 AM »
You need to be clear what you are arguing for first: This statement, by Fr. Feeney, ""There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water". is not the same as that of Fr. Wathen (who denies BOD even exists, calling it a "mythical non-Sacrament") or that of the Dimonds. I know Br. Andre Marie of St. Benedict's Centre, and I like him and respect his zeal to bring non-Catholics to the Faith and the Church. I don't consider St. Benedict's Centre's position to be heretical. I do believe, with St. Alphonsus, that denying BOD itself is at least a mortal sin, and likely heretical in itself, since the Church has clearly taught it. The Church has said Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus, ergo they can safely condemn BOD-deniers.

If you agree with St. Benedict's Centre, there would be no issue here. Do you? "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16."

https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

Someone who agrees with St. Benedict's Centre does not need to begin by arguing against all the Popes, Catechisms, Canon Law, Doctors etc.

Same question for Last Trad.
Like I said at the very beginning of this thread reply #7 to the OP:

Quote
Quote
Papa Pius V wrote: That Baptism of Desire/Blood only applies in the case of he who explicitly believes in the Catholic Faith like the Catechumen for example.

Then we have nothing to debate about. So why are you then insulting believers in the strict EENS as it is written, by calling them Feeneyites and heretics? No strict EENSer is going to debate with you about such an unlikely event as God bringing a catechumen to the faith ("without me you can do nothing") just to take his life before His grace has completed the undertaking. I am an EENSer and I only write on the subject of the false baptism of desire which teaches that Muslim, Hindus, Buddhist, Jew etc. can be saved. PERIOD. I suggest you do the same.

Unless, you are prepared to call St. Amrose, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine  heretics?
However, in your case I know for a fact that you believed in the false baptism of desire which teaches that Muslim, Hindus, Buddhist, Jew etc. can be saved. Which Papa Pius V to his credit completely and clearly denies in just one sentence.