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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 21513 times)

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Offline Catholic Ram

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #165 on: February 08, 2021, 08:12:07 PM »
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  • As far as BOB is concerned, say in the case of St Emerentiana. We need to maintain the importance of Sacramental Baptism, so it would make more sense then to believe that Emerentiana did in fact receive Water Baptism at some point before her death, and not to assume she died without it.
    Again, it’s all about maintaining the absolute necessity of Baptism by Water and The Holy Ghost, as Christ and The Church has always taught us.
    Regarding St. Emerentiana (being "baptized of blood") and her canonization, she was canonized by her bishop (year unknown) BEFORE the end of the 11th century when the Church required that all beatification & canonization must have Holy See approval, and not be done solely by bishops.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #166 on: February 08, 2021, 08:15:10 PM »
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  • Who is the author of life and death? To the believers in BOD & BOB of any kind, one comes to life by chance and dies by chance. To the believer in BOD & BOB, a person learns the faith and gets baptized by his own work. Therefore, to the believer in BOD & BOB, a person could go all the way to the baptismal font by his own volition, and if he was by chance killed, he would be saved by his desire.

    I do not believe in BOD & BOB because I believe that God is the author of life and death, and no one is born at a time and the place where they are born by coincidence (for instance, in pre-Columbian Americas) and no one can even begin to seek the true faith without God's Grace, let alone go all the way up to the baptismal font. And God can allow a person to live 100 years if that is what is required for the baptism. 


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The BODers
    « Reply #167 on: February 09, 2021, 05:40:08 AM »
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  • Who is the author of life and death? To the believers in BOD & BOB of any kind, one comes to life by chance and dies by chance. To the believer in BOD & BOB, a person learns the faith and gets baptized by his own work. Therefore, to the believer in BOD & BOB, a person could go all the way to the baptismal font by his own volition, and if he was by chance killed, he would be saved by his desire.

    I do not believe in BOD & BOB because I believe that God is the author of life and death, and no one is born at a time and the place where they are born by coincidence (for instance, in pre-Columbian Americas) and no one can even begin to seek the true faith without God's Grace, let alone go all the way up to the baptismal font. And God can allow a person to live 100 years if that is what is required for the baptism.
    I agree LT. I used to think maybe, possibly but very rarely a BOD could maybe apply to a catechumen, but no, it is as Fr. Feeney says:  "There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water".

    If a BOD were ever possible, then we must take God out of the whole formula and admit the person saved themself, and if anyone can save themself, then they should simply bypass the whole idea and ascend themself directly into heaven. In fact,  they should have done that years ago - what stopped them?

    On a side note, looks like papa is banned, at least some of his posts have disappeared.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #168 on: February 09, 2021, 06:51:27 AM »
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  • God's Providence arranges all things to the good of His elect.  To claim that He saves some people by BoD implies that He wills that some people should be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  But God has revealed otherwise, so this theological speculation is on shaky ground at best.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #169 on: February 09, 2021, 07:17:20 AM »
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  • But see those who are opening the door to the possibility of that One Catechumen supposedly dying without the Sacrament of Baptism (but still obtaining Salvation) this would then lead automatically to the idea that anyone could potentially skip past the Visible Sacrament, because there’s an invisible option available too.

    Not necessarily.  I think that this opinion that you articulated is the reason that the Dimond brothers have gone to the extreme of rejecting BoD as heretical.  In point of fact, several canonized Doctors of the Church believed in BoD for those who had EXPLICIT Catholic faith, and some like St. Robert Bellarmine further restricted it to formal catechumens only.  So it is not true that in their case they believed it could automatically apply to "anyone".  Until some Jesuits started dabbling with ways to undermine EENS in the 16th century, the notion of BoD was almost universally understood to apply only to FORMAL CATECHUMENS.  At worst, it applied to those who explicitly held the Catholic faith, and the only thing missing for them to be fully Catholic was the Sacrament itself, i.e. they had all the dispositions listed by Trent as required for justification through Baptism.

    But with a couple layers of "implicit" this and "implicit" that, presto chango, and you have BoD basically applying to cannibalistic animists who practice human sacrifice in the jungle.  I believe that St. Alphonsus fell a bit victim to the "implicit" garbage himself, giving it more credibility than it ever deserved.

    But we have to be careful and not overreact, basically declaring these Doctors of the Church to be heretics, as the Dimonds basically do in so many words, and declaring even those who believe in BoD for catechumens only to be heretics.  Since the Church has CLEARLY tolerated and at times perhaps even slightly favored the opinion, it would be schismatic to declare those who hold it to be outside the Church.  Recall that there can be schism not only in refusing communion with the Pope, but also in refusing communion with others whom the Church considers Catholic.  So the Dimonds make a grave error here, but most Feeneyites do not.  So that is the grounds on which I objected to Papa Pius' OP.

    Notice, I say that Church tolerated and may arguably have even slightly favored this opinion at times, but it has NEVER BEEN TAUGHT Magisterially.  Nor CAN the Church define such a thing, because there's ZERO EVIDENCE that it was revealed.  There are three ways in which something can be know as having been revealed.

    1) explicitly in Sacred Scripture -- there's nothing there in Scripture (quite the contrary)

    2) universally held as a matter of faith by the Fathers -- we had only one Father tentatively hold it, for a time, whereas 5 or 6 explicitly rejected it, and the rest are silent on the matter.  So it fails this test.  Note:  some proponents of BoD (like Fr. Laisney and Fr. Pfeiffer) openly LIE and claim that BoD was held unanimously by the Church Fathers.  Even Karl "αnσnymσus Christian" Rahner, who would have loved nothing more than to find evidence for BoD in the fathers, lamented that not only is there no "domatic consensus" in favor of BoD among the Church Fathers, but the evidence suggests that they rejected it entirely.  For all his faults, Rahner at least tried to be intellectually honest, unlike many proponents of BoD.

    3) it implicitly and necessarily derives from other revealed truths -- another fail for BoD, since no one has ever produced a syllogism that does this.  90% of the argument in its favor derive from the St. Robert Bellarmine "reasoning" of "it would seem too harsh" (a very mistaken theological pseudo-argument from St. Robert).

    So St. Alphonsus made a very serious error in declaring BoD to be de fide.

    For those who claim that the Church defined this at Trent, produce immєdιαtely from the Magisterium a theological definition of BoD.  If we are required to believe something "of faith" then we must have been told by the Church WHAT we must believe about it.  Otherwise, we're merely paying lip service to some vague concept of BoD, and BoD reduces to the proposition that "the Sacrament of Baptism if NOT necessary for salvation," ... and we know that to be heretical.  At best, Trent mentioned it in passing, saying that the desire for Baptism was necessary in order to be justified by it.  It never taught that the desire could be a SUBSTITUTE for receiving the Sacrament.  BoDers pretend that this passing reference is tantamount to there being a Canon in Trent declaring:  "If anyone does not believe that the desire for Baptism suffices for justification on its own without the actual reception of the Sacrament, let him be anathema."  That's preposterous.  But there IS a CANON that rejects the notion that the Sacrament can justify without the desire to receive it ... hmmm ... which is precisely all Trent is saying in this infamous passage.  Yes, St. Alphonsus, who interpreted it otherwise, got this wrong.  I have a great reverence for St. Alphonsus, but he was not God, and I have no problem calling him out for this mistake.  In fact, being the great saint that he is, he is probably thanking me right now for doing so and helping to neutralize what he now knows to be an error.  Theologians have gone through and found several DOZEN errors in the works of St. Thomas.  These men, while great Doctors, were not God, and could make mistakes, and often disagreed fiercely with one another.  BoDers pretend that by citing St. Thomas the case is magically closed ... but then they conveniently ignore St. Thomas when he teaches that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation.

    At best, one could argue that BoD is OBJECTIVELY heretical, but never that those who hold it can be formal heretics.  So, for instance, the opinion of St. Thomas regarding the Immaculate Conception was objectively heretical, but since it hadn't been defined yet by the Church he was clearly not a heretic for holding it.  Similarly, even if you hold BoD to be heretical, since the Church has not defined it to be heretical, we can't declare those who believe in it to be outside the Church.

    Now, much more clearly heretical is the notion of "implicit faith" being salvific.  There's a huge amount of evidence that this was rejected universally by the Church for the first 1600 years.  But even these I cannot hold to be formal heretics, since the Church ... tragically ... allowed this opinion to be taught for some time.  That was a terrible mistake (along with the Church not weighing in against Molinism ... a related problem) ... but this was allowed by God as the root of this time of trial that we live in now.  Vatican II could never have happened had the Church rejected implicit faith theory right out of the gate.  Now, while I don't hold the proponents of this theory to be formal heretics, I do hold them to be objectively heretical and objectively harming and damaging the faith, and I will fight them tooth and nail until the Church condemns their errors once and for all.

    Nevetheless, if I were a priest, for instance, I would not withhold the Sacraments from those who held this garbage, since it would not be my prerogative to do so.  That power lies only with the Church.


    Offline Comrade

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #170 on: February 09, 2021, 08:26:59 AM »
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  • Thanks, Ladislaus, for that excellent description of discerning if BoD was revealed. Also, for your "objective" heretic example. I come across more Traditional Catholics who support the "implicit" faith than supporting "explicit". I think this perverse idea lies at the heart of Vatican II.

    Of course, I am always interested in a good argument and would love to see to a kind rebuttal from an "implict" BoD supporter.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #171 on: February 09, 2021, 08:39:12 AM »
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  • God's Providence arranges all things to the good of His elect.  To claim that He saves some people by BoD implies that He wills that some people should be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  But God has revealed otherwise, so this theological speculation is on shaky ground at best.
    There are 100's of examples of the unbaptized dead being brought back to life just to be baptized, then they immediately die again.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #172 on: February 09, 2021, 09:02:06 AM »
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  • Baptism of Desire itself is God's Providence for His elect, just like Perfect Contrition, in which the desire for the Sacrament of Penance is implicit, is God's Providence for those to whom access to a Priest is morally or physically impossible at the moment. People want everything for themselves (e.g. forgiveness through contrition when a Priest is not available), yet stubbornly resist God's clearly revealed Will to save some souls by giving them the Sacramental Effect of both Baptism and Penance in voto only. God can do as He chooses, and is not bound to give His grace through the visible Sacraments only. The example of the Good Thief, the penitent Magdalene, Cornelius etc all confirm this. Baptism and Penance are both necessary in the same way: in fact or in desire. See Canon Law.

    St. Bonaventure is another Doctor of the Church who taught Baptism of Desire, as is St. Bernard: In Sent. IV, d.4,P.2,a.I,q.I: “God obliges no one to do the impossible and therefore it must be admitted that the baptism of desire without the baptism of water is sufficient, provided the person in question has the will to receive the baptism of water, but is prevented from doing so before he dies."

    Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught Baptism of Desire to St. Catherine of Sienna: Dialogue of St. Catherine: "I wished thee to see the secret of the Heart, showing it to thee open, so that you mightest see how much more I loved than I could show thee by finite pain. I poured from it Blood and Water, to show thee the baptism of water which is received in virtue of the Blood. I also showed the baptism of love in two ways, first in those who are baptized in their blood shed for Me which has virtue through My Blood, even if they have not been able to have Holy Baptism, and also those who are baptized in fire, not being able to have Holy Baptism, but desiring it with the affection of love. There is no baptism of desire without the Blood, because Blood is steeped in and kneaded with the fire of Divine charity, because through love was it shed.

    Lastly, Baptism of Desire doesn't mean non-Catholics are saved; rather, it means those who are Justified by Baptism of Desire, and are foreknown by God to persevere in the State of Grace until death, will also be given the Grace to embrace the Catholic Faith before the end of their lives. Everyone in Heaven believed in and loves Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, venerates Mother Mary as Queen of Heaven etc. There are no non-Catholics in Heaven. Before departing this life, known to God alone sometimes, they must have explicitly believed at least in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation.

    This is taught by Fr. Mueller in a Catechism approved by Rome: "Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
    A. No.
    Q. Why not?
    A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.
    Q. What do you mean by this?
    A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

    Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
    A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved."

    The doctrine on the Soul of the Church is also taught by His Holiness Pope St. Pius X in his Catechism. Pope Pius XII also mentions it.


    Offline Carissima

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #173 on: February 09, 2021, 09:29:22 AM »
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  • Ladislaus said:
    “I think that this opinion that you articulated is the reason that the Dimond brothers have gone to the extreme of rejecting BoD as heretical.”

    I definitely don’t agree with the Dimond bros or their anathemas and excommunications of Catholics. The Dimond’s have errors too. Which is why I stick with the simplicity of believing that ‘God’s Elect obtain Sacramental Baptism, which Christ taught us is through ‘water and The Holy Ghost.’
    The issue here is that Catholics want to teach there are other ways. Once they do this, they open up doors to other possibilities that could be heretical and therefore mislead people. Of course with God anything is possible, but we are taking upon ourselves the risk of spreading heresy by teaching there are other avenues for obtaining Salvation. Yes, Doctors of the Church discussed these things but they are not unanimous. So we as Catholics, who are not theologians (i.e Fr Pfeiffer, Dimond bro’s, Lefebvre) should instead be teaching Salvation through Sacramental Baptism, and leave the individual Justification of Souls to God.

    Something I use for teaching my children is the case of ‘Borneo Bob’. Indigenous people with supposedly no access to missionaries or Sacraments. If one must hope in God’s Providence for these poor souls, we should believe then that God could send someone to baptize those souls before they die, even if it be an Angel from Heaven (though with God, a missionary could get there just as easily) 
    This way then we continue to maintain the importance of; The Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for Salvation.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #174 on: February 09, 2021, 09:53:45 AM »
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  • Baptism of Desire itself is God's Providence for His elect, just like Perfect Contrition, in which the desire for the Sacrament of Penance is implicit, is God's Providence for those to whom access to a Priest is morally or physically impossible at the moment.....
    We can post reams of saints teaching otherwise than what the writer above posted, so, it boils down to what one believes and no amount of logic is going to convince him otherwise (or those like him).

    The bottom line in my years of debating with Implicit Faith'ers (those who believe Muslim, Hindus, Buddhist, Jҽωs... indeed anyone in any religion, can be saved without explicit desire to be a Catholic) is that deep down they believe as I posted previously, and to which Ladislaus added:


    Quote
    Last Tradhican wrote - Who is the author of life and death? To the believers in BOD & BOB of any kind, one comes to life by chance and dies by chance. To the believer in BOD & BOB, a person learns the faith and gets baptized by his own work. Therefore, to the believer in BOD & BOB, a person could go all the way to the baptismal font by his own volition, and if he was by chance killed, he would be saved by his desire.

    Ladislaus added -  God's Providence arranges all things to the good of His elect.  To claim that He saves some people by BoD implies that He wills that some people should be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  But God has revealed otherwise, so this theological speculation is on shaky ground at best

    I do not believe in BOD & BOB because I believe that God is the author of life and death, and no one is born at a time and the place where they are born by coincidence (for instance, in pre-Columbian Americas) and no one can even begin to seek the true faith without God's Grace, let alone go all the way up to the baptismal font. And God can allow a person to live 100 years if that is what is required for the baptism.

    St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #175 on: February 09, 2021, 09:54:45 AM »
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  • Baptism of Desire itself is God's Providence for His elect....
    I wonder why you do not accept that if God can arrange for you to have been baptized, it is by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to be baptized. If one is going to do it, almighty God will give one the time to do it, and the water for doing it, and the minister for doing it - the same as He did for your baptism. There is nothing that is unforeseen to God, whether that be an accident or anything else.  

    Do you not accept that it is God Who Provided the sacrament to all people since the promulgation of the Gospel who've ever been baptized?    
    A BOD, as Trent says, is justification by faith alone, not Divine Providence, certainly not Divine Providence for His elect.

    "There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water".

    You will need to name only one instance or condition where God could not provide the sacrament to one who sincerely desires it before I would consider salvation via a BOD as being possible.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #176 on: February 09, 2021, 10:03:17 AM »
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  • You need to be clear what you are arguing for first: This statement, by Fr. Feeney, ""There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water". is not the same as that of Fr. Wathen (who denies BOD even exists, calling it a "mythical non-Sacrament") or that of the Dimonds. I know Br. Andre Marie of St. Benedict's Centre, and I like him and respect his zeal to bring non-Catholics to the Faith and the Church. I don't consider St. Benedict's Centre's position to be heretical. I do believe, with St. Alphonsus, that denying BOD itself is at least a mortal sin, and likely heretical in itself, since the Church has clearly taught it. The Church has said Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus, ergo they can safely condemn BOD-deniers.

    If you agree with St. Benedict's Centre, there would be no issue here. Do you? "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16."

    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    Someone who agrees with St. Benedict's Centre does not need to begin by arguing against all the Popes, Catechisms, Canon Law, Doctors etc.

    Same question for Last Trad.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #177 on: February 09, 2021, 10:04:59 AM »
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  • I wonder why you do not accept that if God can arrange for you to have been baptized, it is by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to be baptized. If one is going to do it, almighty God will give one the time (the era in which they are born, and the place. Example: France 1650) to do it, and the water for doing it, and the minister for doing it - the same as He did for your baptism. There is nothing that is unforeseen to God, whether that be an accident or anything else.  
    my addition in bold

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #178 on: February 09, 2021, 10:10:17 AM »
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  • You need to be clear what you are arguing for first: This statement, by Fr. Feeney, ""There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water". is not the same as that of Fr. Wathen (who denies BOD even exists, calling it a "mythical non-Sacrament") or that of the Dimonds. I know Br. Andre Marie of St. Benedict's Centre, and I like him and respect his zeal to bring non-Catholics to the Faith and the Church. I don't consider St. Benedict's Centre's position to be heretical. I do believe, with St. Alphonsus, that denying BOD itself is at least a mortal sin, and likely heretical in itself, since the Church has clearly taught it. The Church has said Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus, ergo they can safely condemn BOD-deniers.

    If you agree with St. Benedict's Centre, there would be no issue here. Do you? "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16."

    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    Someone who agrees with St. Benedict's Centre does not need to begin by arguing against all the Popes, Catechisms, Canon Law, Doctors etc.

    Same question for Last Trad.
    All I asked for was one instance or condition where God could not provide the sacrament.

    I agree with the Council of Trent, who teaches 1) the sacraments are necessary for salvation and 2) no desire for the sacrament = no justification. We all agree a BOD is not a sacrament, so immediately there's that.

    How is it possible to take "no desire = no justification" to "desire = salvation"? Can you explain that?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #179 on: February 09, 2021, 10:11:42 AM »
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  • You need to be clear what you are arguing for first: This statement, by Fr. Feeney, ""There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water". is not the same as that of Fr. Wathen (who denies BOD even exists, calling it a "mythical non-Sacrament") or that of the Dimonds. I know Br. Andre Marie of St. Benedict's Centre, and I like him and respect his zeal to bring non-Catholics to the Faith and the Church. I don't consider St. Benedict's Centre's position to be heretical. I do believe, with St. Alphonsus, that denying BOD itself is at least a mortal sin, and likely heretical in itself, since the Church has clearly taught it. The Church has said Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus, ergo they can safely condemn BOD-deniers.

    If you agree with St. Benedict's Centre, there would be no issue here. Do you? "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16."

    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    Someone who agrees with St. Benedict's Centre does not need to begin by arguing against all the Popes, Catechisms, Canon Law, Doctors etc.

    Same question for Last Trad.
    Like I said at the very beginning of this thread reply #7 to the OP:

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    Papa Pius V wrote: That Baptism of Desire/Blood only applies in the case of he who explicitly believes in the Catholic Faith like the Catechumen for example.

    Then we have nothing to debate about. So why are you then insulting believers in the strict EENS as it is written, by calling them Feeneyites and heretics? No strict EENSer is going to debate with you about such an unlikely event as God bringing a catechumen to the faith ("without me you can do nothing") just to take his life before His grace has completed the undertaking. I am an EENSer and I only write on the subject of the false baptism of desire which teaches that Muslim, Hindus, Buddhist, Jew etc. can be saved. PERIOD. I suggest you do the same.

    Unless, you are prepared to call St. Amrose, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine  heretics?
    However, in your case I know for a fact that you believed in the false baptism of desire which teaches that Muslim, Hindus, Buddhist, Jew etc. can be saved. Which Papa Pius V to his credit completely and clearly denies in just one sentence.