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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 21580 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #120 on: February 05, 2021, 05:28:22 PM »
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  • I admit its a huge problem. I am seriously considering the Cassiciacuм thesis.

    Or look at Father Chazal's variant ... which he at one point called sede-impoundism.

    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #121 on: February 05, 2021, 05:29:36 PM »
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  • Here is Speray's argument:
    Uhm, St. Thomas also teaches that the invincibly ignorant are damned.  And he explains why it's not Calvinism [in principle, since Calvin lived later].  He states that this ignorance is in fact punishment for their other sins, and that, were there no such obstalces, God would enlighten them with the things necessary to know for salvation.

    Trent dogmatically teaches that faith is necessary for salvation.  It is in fact agreed by ALL Catholic theologians that explicit knowledge of at least some truths about God (I'll prescind from the debate about which ones) is necessary by necessity of means in order to have supernatural faith.  Consequently, ignorance of these truths, whether vincible or invincible, renders a soul incapable of being saved.  But this is not Calvinism for the reasons St. Thomas Aquinas adduces, namely, that the ignorance itself is in fact a punishment for other sins.

    We'll notice again how the BoDers' zeal to promote BoD has NOTHING to do with rare case of a catechumen who dies before Baptism.  It's all about getting the ignorant and non-Catholics into heaven.  It's an assault on EENS.  And the courageous Father Feeney called it out for what it is.
    Speray's argument is 100% on point.
    Also Augustinianism is Calvinism and Jansenism. No doubt about that whatsoever. It is objectively verifiable.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #122 on: February 05, 2021, 05:29:47 PM »
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  • No, but it is our job to be consistent logically with ourselves and in the faith.

    To the best of our ability, yes.  I admit that we have a vacuum of authority here and so laymen are stuck trying to resolve these issues on our own.  Sure, we can look to priests, but they too are divided, so there's the question of having to decide which priests or groups of priests to hitch our wagons to.

    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #123 on: February 05, 2021, 05:31:57 PM »
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  • It most certainly does not.  Unless you have a different argument than Speray.
    An excerpt from the book, "God Owes Us Nothing" by Dr. Kolakowski:


    Jansenists hardly ever called themselves “Jansenists,” of course; the name was coined by their Jesuit enemies almost at the beginning of the controversy; it suggested a kind of a new sect set up by one recently deceased theologian. Jansenius’s followers called themselves disciples of Augustine, whose authority had been unshakable in Christianity. They insisted that they—and their master, Jansenius—had nothing new to say; they simply followed and repeated the most traditional teaching of the Church, which conformed to the Gospels and to the epistles of Saint Paul and was codified in Augustinian theology. The “Molinist” doctrine, on the other hand, was, they argued, a novelty in the Catholic Church, even though it brought back to life the most dangerous heresy of the Pelagians or semi-Pelagians (the so-called “Marsilians”).

    The Jesuit writers were indeed in an awkward position when they were challenged by the authority of Augustine, and most of the time they preferred to avoid the issue. When pressed on this point, they either issued gratuitous denials or sometimes—not often—pointed out that the great saint, much as he deserved respect, was not infallible, after all, and his writings were not dogmatically binding; they also averred that their own theory of grace was perfectly in keeping with the teaching of Thomas Aquinas, whose authority they often invoked. They accused the Jansenists, however, of being tainted with the horrors of the Calvinist heresy. Good arguments may be advanced to show that both sides were right in their accusations. Jansenists were on firm ground in saying that they were faithful to the Augustinian teaching, and quite justified in scenting Pelagian errors in the Jesuit theology. The Jesuits were no less right in demonstrating the fundamental conformity of Jansenist tenets with Calvin’s theory of predestination. This amounts to saying that Calvin was, on this point, a good Augustinian and that, by condemning Jansenius, the Church was in effect condemning—without, of course, stating it explicitly—Augustine himself, its own greatest theological authority. The pronouncements and the anathemas of the Council of Trent left some ambiguities which both Jesuits and Jansenists could plausibly interpret in their favor; the successive condemnations of Baius, Jansenius, and Quesnel, however, sealed the fate of the Augustinian tradition on this crucial point in the Catholic world. This was a momentous event in the history of Christianity and thus in the European history of ideas, not a long-forgotten quarrel of hair-splitting medieval minds.


    The Council of Trent did confirm the Augustinian teaching. Whatever God orders is feasible with his grace but this grace is not always there and not everybody gets it; otherwise we would not need to ask for help. And it is important to keep in mind that grace is refused not only to infidels and obdurate sinners but also to faithful and just people, who really do wish to abide by divine orders: they have will but not power. The paradigmatic example, both to Augustine and to Jansenius, is, of course, the denial of Peter, a supremely iustus vir who had the will to follow the commandments but was not provided with the divine aid to do it. One simple Augustinian sentence (among many) settles the matter: “I want you to will, but it is not enough that you will. You have to be aided so that you will fully accomplish what you will.”7 Even the Lord’s Prayer, “do not lead us into temptation,” implies that “it is not given to all not to be tempted above what they are capable of.”8 The self-conceited Pelagian contention that the will cannot be enslaved, and that we simply do not sin if we do not want to, is to be found among scholastics who fail to see that it is not enough to will, or to will not to, in order to overpower the temptation. “It is grace which causes that we not only will to do what is right but that we are able to do so.” Bad will can be converted into good will only by the power of grace. God demonstrated, through Peter’s example, that he punishes the pride of those who rely on their own powers. “And what is man without grace but what Peter was when he denied Christ?”9 

    Jansenius claims that Aquinas’s theology does not depart from Augustinian tenets on this point. Did not he say that man is in duty bound to perform acts he is incapable of performing without grace, which God does not always confer (a just punishment for previous crimes or at least for original sin)?10 Didn’t he say that the sinner is guilty even if he cannot escape sinning, not unlike a drunken killer who is not excused just because he committed the crime as a result of being drunk, since he was guilty of having got drunk in the first place?
    According to Augustine, Jurieu, and Calvin, human creatures after the Fall can perform no morally good act (conform to divine law) unaided; for every such act they need the infusion of grace which is given to some and refused to others by the sheer wish of God, and not because some are more deserving of grace than others.


    According to the semi-Pelagian teaching of the Jesuits, we do need divine grace to do good but “sufficient grace” is given to all, and it needs only our free will to make it efficient. Since this efficient grace is a constant condition of our life, we may say that moral perfection and our salvation depend on our effort and will. According to Aquinas, we have enough grace to perform some good acts by our free choice, but the free choice does not suffice to avoid all sins in all circuмstances.
    One might argue that the Augustinians’ fears and worries were not well grounded, as Christianity has after all survived after adopting a semi-Pelagian doctrine of salvation; neither has it been transformed into a secular philosophy, despite the intense efforts of many Catholic theologians. The powerful image of Jesus Christ is still there: a good shepherd with wide-open arms. But it is not the Christianity that the Jansenists carried in their hearts. If they were here now they might say, with infinite sadness, that “the cross has been emptied.” As a result of the long anti-Jansenist campaign, Christianity did undergo a mutation in both theological and cultural terms, imperceptible at the time. This probably made the survival of the Church possible, but at a price which the seventeenth-century Augustinians would have found exorbitant.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #124 on: February 05, 2021, 05:32:22 PM »
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  • Speray's argument is 100% on point.
    Also Augustinianism is Calvinism and Jansenism. No doubt about that whatsoever. It is objectively verifiable.

    No, it's not even close.  Speray claims that it's Calvinistic to claim that the invincibly ignorant can't be saved.  That's nonsense.  St. Thomas explained why it's not the same as double predestination.


    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #125 on: February 05, 2021, 05:34:13 PM »
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  • To the best of our ability, yes.  I admit that we have a vacuum of authority here and so laymen are stuck trying to resolve these issues on our own.  Sure, we can look to priests, but they too are divided, so there's the question of having to decide which priests or groups of priests to hitch our wagons to.
    Well said. The issue at its root is one of authority whether regarding Feeneyism of theological disputation X.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #126 on: February 05, 2021, 05:37:14 PM »
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  • An excerpt from the book, "God Owes Us Nothing" by Dr. Kolakowski:

    One might argue that the Augustinians’ fears and worries were not well grounded, as Christianity has after all survived after adopting a semi-Pelagian doctrine of salvation; neither has it been transformed into a secular philosophy, despite the intense efforts of many Catholic theologians. The powerful image of Jesus Christ is still there: a good shepherd with wide-open arms. But it is not the Christianity that the Jansenists carried in their hearts. If they were here now they might say, with infinite sadness, that “the cross has been emptied.” As a result of the long anti-Jansenist campaign, Christianity did undergo a mutation in both theological and cultural terms, imperceptible at the time. This probably made the survival of the Church possible, but at a price which the seventeenth-century Augustinians would have found exorbitant.

    Did he write this before or after Vatican II?  We see the fruits of semi-Pelagianism in Vatican II, and it's only by the grace of God that the Church will be able to "survive" without becoming "transformed into a secular philosophy"?

    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #127 on: February 05, 2021, 05:37:40 PM »
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  • No, it's not even close.  Speray claims that it's Calvinistic to claim that the invincibly ignorant can't be saved.  That's nonsense.  St. Thomas explained why it's not the same as double predestination.
    After Pius IX's encyclical on the issue; the matter is closed, Rome has spoken.


    And after the Bull Unigenitus, Augustinianism is dead in the Catholic Church.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #128 on: February 05, 2021, 05:38:28 PM »
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  • Well, at least you're over the target area, realizing that BoD is tied to semi-Pelagianism ... which is something I've argued for years.

    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #129 on: February 05, 2021, 05:40:23 PM »
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  • Did he write this before or after Vatican II?  We see the fruits of semi-Pelagianism in Vatican II, and it's only by the grace of God that the Church will be able to "survive" without becoming "transformed into a secular philosophy"?
    The drafts go back to before Vatican II though the book was published after Vatican II.

    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #130 on: February 05, 2021, 05:41:50 PM »
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  • Well, at least you're over the target area, realizing that BoD is tied to semi-Pelagianism ... which is something I've argued for years.
    Its objective reality that I cannot deny. Feeneyism is more Augustinian whereas the Church's position the last 300 years is closer to semi-Pelagianism.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #131 on: February 05, 2021, 05:56:16 PM »
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  • Its objective reality that I cannot deny. Feeneyism is more Augustinian whereas the Church's position the last 300 years is closer to semi-Pelagianism.

    Well, I think that's the problem, the Church deliberately did NOT take a position ... in the dispute between the Molinists and the Thomists/Dominicans (who were more Augustinian).  Semi-Pelagianism did win out over time, and I trace Vatican II and its errors to semi-Pelagian roots.  To a large extent, the Church tried to stay out of it, but this was, in retrospect, a tragic mistake ... although one, of course, that was permitted by God for a reason.

    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #132 on: February 05, 2021, 06:03:01 PM »
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  • Well, I think that's the problem, the Church deliberately did NOT take a position ... in the dispute between the Molinists and the Thomists/Dominicans (who were more Augustinian).  Semi-Pelagianism did win out over time, and I trace Vatican II and its errors to semi-Pelagian roots.  To a large extent, the Church tried to stay out of it, but this was, in retrospect, a tragic mistake ... although one, of course, that was permitted by God for a reason.
    The Bull Unigenitus sealed the fate of Augustinianism permanently and cemented the Jesuit semi-Pelagian position as the official interpretation of the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #133 on: February 05, 2021, 06:07:24 PM »
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  • The Bull Unigenitus sealed the fate of Augustinianism permanently and cemented the Jesuit semi-Pelagian position as the official interpretation of the Church.

    No, I disagree.  While the Church condemned certain propositions of Jansen, it did not condemn Augustinianism per se.  There were many Augustinians who did not fall under the Jansen condemnations because they maintained a distinction between sufficient and efficacious grace ... as did St. Augustine.  It's that distinction which separates the two.  Unigenitus condemned Jansenism, not Augustinianism (which was closely followed by the Thomists and Dominicans).  In fact, the Church has promoted St. Thomas as THE common Doctor of the Church, and he was Augustinian.  Your claim that the Church rejected Augustinianism is based on the false premise that it's the same as Jansenism.

    And, then, of course, coming full circle in this thread, I dispute that rejecting Baptism of Desire has any implications with regard to that particular dispute.  It's an entirely independent question.  There's no in-depth analysis there of why the ignorant remain ignorant and are not saved, i.e. whether they rejected some graces or did not receive graces, etc.  You're falsely conflating these two questions.

    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #134 on: February 05, 2021, 06:13:15 PM »
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  • No, I disagree.  While the Church condemned certain propositions of Jansen, it did not condemn Augustinianism per se.  There were many Augustinians who did not fall under the Jansen condemnations because they maintained a distinction between sufficient and efficacious grace ... as did St. Augustine.  It's that distinction which separates the two.  Unigenitus condemned Jansenism, not Augustinianism (which was closely followed by the Thomists and Dominicans).  In fact, the Church has promoted St. Thomas as THE common Doctor of the Church, and he was Augustinian.  Your claim that the Church rejected Augustinianism is based on the false premise that it's the same as Jansenism.

    And, then, of course, coming full circle in this thread, I dispute that rejecting Baptism of Desire has any implications with regard to that particular dispute.  It's an entirely independent question.  There's no in-depth analysis there of why the ignorant remain ignorant and are not saved, i.e. whether they rejected some graces or did not receive graces, etc.  You're falsely conflating these two questions.
    Interesting perspective, but there are undoubtedly Augustinian doctrines in Jansenism which was condemned by Unigenitus. While Augustinianism in its totality was not rejected by the Church there can be little doubt that the Jansenist affair severely limited the views and interpretations acceptable to hold within the Augustinian spectrum so to speak.
    St. Thomas Aquinas was certainly Augustinian at core, but not to the extent of say the Jansenists or Calvinists who fully embraced Augustinianism in its totality.

    The problem with not believing in BOD and BOB and invincible ignorance is that it necessitates double predestination. The barbaric African or the Japanese or the American Indians were all damned for hundreds of years for lack of missionaries. That is double predestination, no doubt.