Author Topic: The Absolute necessity of Water Baptism (Read 6586 times)

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #30 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:53:25 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

It says all those who die, not all those who died. Present tense, not past tense.

I understand the concept of verb tenses very well, CM. So, are you arguing that (sans infallible decree), pre-Gospel and/or pre-Florence people might have been able to die unjustified, yet receive justification post-mortem? Do we need an ex cathedra decree about it all to realize the truth of the matter? HeL-Lo-O!!!

CM · « **Reply #31 on:** August 16, 2009, 07:06:58 PM »

What I am saying is what I have said.

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Getting into Old Testament justification is neither necessary (since it is no longer relevant) or prudent (since the answers are nowhere to be found).

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #32 on:** August 17, 2009, 01:10:07 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

What I am saying is what I have said.

No offense, but you are clearly avoiding the subject because your understanding of the matter, and it importance, is non-existent.

Have you ever read How Christ Said the First Mass? It is NOT irrelevant or imprudent to study the ins and outs of the old dispensation. It is actually quite fascinating and fruitful. It is AMAZING how wonderfully ALL was prefigured in often sublime ways.

CM · « **Reply #33 on:** August 17, 2009, 02:16:46 AM »

Alright, I have come to an understanding regarding Old Testament justification, thanks to St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Catholic Encyclopedia.

As far as I understand it, circuмcision remitted original sin and actual sin, but not the punishment due to sin. This was performed ex opere operantis based on faith in Christ to come.

If this can be shown to be wrong I will, of course, amend my position. If it is right, however, it in no way exonerates your heresy.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #34 on:** August 17, 2009, 02:58:47 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

If it is right, however, it in no way exonerates your heresy.

Your graciousness overwhelms me, CM. :wink:

All the same, I am glad to see that you eventually decided to "waste your time" doing a little more study on the matter, 'irrelevant and imprudent' though it seemed at first sight.

There is much we think is one way that, upon investigation, turns out to be very different from our initial impression/idea. The older we get, the more clearly we see this fact of life.

CM · « **Reply #35 on:** August 17, 2009, 03:23:23 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

The older we get, the more clearly we see this fact of life.

Tell that to my mother who is in the Novus Ordo.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #36 on:** August 17, 2009, 04:23:14 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Tell that to my mother who is in the Novus Ordo.

So is mine. Still, I bet she knows quite a bit about life that you do not and has valuable advice from which you can profit if you listen.

CM · « **Reply #37 on:** August 17, 2009, 04:33:02 AM »

You don't know her. I should have never brought her up. She has no wisdom let's leave it at that.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #38 on:** August 17, 2009, 05:08:15 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

She has no wisdom...

You should not have said such, leaving it all behind with the statement that you should not have mentioned her in the first place. She is your MOM, man!

CM · « **Reply #39 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:22:51 AM »

And my grandmother is Anglican. Should I say that she has wisdom just because she's my grandmother?

Non-Catholics do not have anything but vain worldly 'wisdom', which leads straight to hell. The only true wisdom comes from God, and only this can illuminate them and get them off the broad and slippery downhill slope.

CM · « **Reply #40 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:24:17 AM »

I love them both and I want them to be saved, but if they go to hell, there will be nothing in them left to love. Only eternal hatred of God.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #41 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:35:07 AM »

I say this in all kindness, but...

You have some issues, seeing things through an entirely-too-dark lens.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #42 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:38:39 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Non-Catholics do not have anything but vain worldly 'wisdom', which leads straight to hell.

So, you believe your mother, grandmother, et alii, have NOTHING of worth to share with you? No non-Catholic can give you any practical advice of any value about anything?

Get out of the house, man. Go watch a movie that makes you cry because you laugh so hard, take a walk in the woods, go to dinner or coffee with a woman who makes your heart miss a beat, SOMETHING!!

CM · « **Reply #43 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:44:20 AM »

Gladius, you seem to be of the opinion that this world is not our enemy.

CM · « **Reply #44 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:49:28 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

So, you believe your mother, grandmother, et alii, have NOTHING of worth to share with you?

They pose a danger to my soul. Scripture exhorts us to avoid the, Tradition exhorts us to avoid them, the Lord Jesus Christ exhorts us to shake the dust from our feet for a testimony to them.

Quote from: gladius veritatis

No non-Catholic can give you any practical advice of any value about anything?

Vain worldly wisdom. Did you miss that? They cannot offer valuable spiritual wisdom, since they are spiritual poison until they repent and convert, and ultimately the only thing of any real practical value is spiritual wisdom.

"Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"