Author Topic: The Absolute necessity of Water Baptism (Read 37138 times)

CM · « **Reply #15 on:** August 15, 2009, 03:53:48 AM »

...by the way, Irish, do you speak French?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #16 on:** August 15, 2009, 04:05:02 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Now that you mention it - if they were being cleansed of original sin, then why did Christ come? Why were they detained in the Limbo of the Fathers?

You can't have it both ways, mate. If they died with original sin upon their souls, they could NOT be justified after death. See your citation from the Council of Florence. What do you even understand justification to mean pre-Gospel (or even post-Gospel)? St John the Baptist died before Our Lord. Did he die with original sin upon his soul? St Joseph? They were detained in Limbo because no one could enter Heaven until Christ paid the debt in actu, not just in potentia - and He, rightly, was to be the first to enter into His own kingdom. Btw, to be without original sin is NOT, strictly speaking, the same as being filled with divine grace.

That you think you may have made some kind of point with the above comment is rather telling.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #17 on:** August 15, 2009, 04:26:43 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

...by the way, Irish, do you speak French?

I know a little.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #18 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:48:58 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

...if they were being cleansed of original sin, then why did Christ come? Why were they detained in the Limbo of the Fathers?

You are, effectively, positing the idea of an OT BoD-style of justification that takes place AFTER DEATH. Isn't that ironic?

If NO ONE was being cleansed of original sin pre-Incarnation, ALL who lived and died before the Passion/Resurrection/preaching of the Gospel, etc, ARE IN HELL, no?

Dawn · « **Reply #19 on:** August 15, 2009, 07:57:36 AM »

Umm, didn't everything change with Christ? So, that what happened before Christ no longer pertained as he instituted the sacraments. And, God would not punish persons like St. John for one, he was santified in the womb by Christ's passion and two Christ had not made the sacraments so they could not be baptised. Then, Christ begain the Church and the sacraments and one must be bapitzed.