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Author Topic: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!  (Read 4399 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2021, 12:14:32 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on February 18, 2021, 11:46:52 AM
You stand on the word of two misguided monks, who think they've discovered a new "heresy" in Trent. Blind guides of the blind.

Let's start with this most brazen of lies.  And you know it's a lie.  I've repeatedly stated that I object to the Dimonds' characterization of BoD as heresy.  I lean toward the opinions of Father Feeney.  I hadn't heard of the Dimond Brothers until long after I came to the conclusion that I don't believe in BoD.  I barely knew anything about Father Feeney either.

In point of fact, I had believed in BoD for catechumens believing that Trent taught it ... until I actually read the entire Treatise on Justification in Latin.  I realized then and there that Trent wasn't teaching anything of the sort.

Nor do I rely on anyone's "word."  I've thoroughly studied the question, the origins of the notion, its theological notes, what the Fathers taught about it, and all the other statements both for an against BoD, and I have found the evidence AGAINST BoD to be much stronger than that FOR it.

So this is a brazen lie on your part.  I'm not sure what point there is in discussing things with a shameless liar.  Really the only reason I respond is to debunk the crap that you post for what it is ... crap.
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2021, 12:25:11 PM »
You can't or don't or won't debate decently, without resorting to absurd ad hominem. I did not lie. It is a work of mercy to instruct you erring souls, who are committing objective mortal sin according to St. Alphonsus and all post-Trent authorities, and I and others are doing it. When I said "you BOD-deniers", I wasn't referring to you alone. I've said clearly I don't consider SBC's position to be heretical. But I still don't know if you agree with SBC on EVERYTHING. you have to believe BOD justifies and makes one incorporated into the Soul of the Church, and that those dying in the state of grace will be saved. SBC explicitly believes and confesses these two doctrines/dogmas. Some of you anti-BODers, which is certainly an appropriate qualifier given your vehement opposition to the dogma, refuse to confess these two doctrines/dogmas explicitly.

Here is SBC: "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacrament in order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16.

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]From: [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588235294118)]https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html[/color]
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2021, 12:30:59 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on February 18, 2021, 11:46:52 AM
Next, you missed this from Pope Innocent III: "Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Apostolicam Sedem).”

Why prayers and sacrifices? Because the person received justification through BOD, but needed prayers to be saved. You didn't answer many of my questions on the other thread regarding this.

Here you go again re-spamming the same nonsense after I've already addressed it, falsely claiming that I missed it.

First of all this "Apostolicam Sedem" which you claim was written by Innocent III, well, most authors attribute it to Innocent II, and neither opinion is certain.  I cited a similar letter from Innocent III in which he claims that such "rush to [their] heavenly reward without delay" ... aka bypass Purgatory.

In another similar letter, Innocent III claimed that transubstantiation happened even if a priest merely thought the words of consecration, and St. Thomas rightly excoriated him for it.  So is this another Magisterial text?

No, these letters, including some with disputed authorship, are not Magisterial.  I love it how people try to pretend they are by grabbing the first two Latin words "Apostolicam Sedem" to give the false impression that they're bulls or encyclicals or something ... just like the infamous "Suprema Haec".
So which papal letter do you adhere to, the one by Innocent II or the one by Innocent III?  And do you believe Innocent III's "teaching" that there can be a transubstantiation of desire?

No, you guy engage in massive "confirmation bias", selecting only the sources that agree with you and then puffing up their authority, claiming that some potentially apocryphal comment amounts to "teaching" (no, this is not semantics, rather, it's dishonesty on your part) if it agrees with you but ignoring all the others.

You cite only St. Ambrose and St. Augustine but pretend that the others who reject BoD don't exist.  This demonstrates that you are dishonest, a bad-willed liar, to use a Dimond term that here seems to imply.

Xaiver, do you reject the teaching of St. Gregory nαzιanzen, St. Fulgentius, and St. Gregory of Nyssa ... who rejected Baptism of Desire?  If you were to respond, yes, that yes you reject this teaching, then I might have some hope of your being honest ... but you ignore them and pretend they don't exist.

You keep spamming the same texts over and over again pretending they're something new, when we acknowledge the existence of these opinions but then disagree.  You on the other hand simply filter out what you don't agree with.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2021, 12:32:21 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on February 18, 2021, 12:25:11 PM
You can't or don't or won't debate decently, without resorting to absurd ad hominem. I did not lie. 

No, buddy, you absolutely did lie, claiming that my opinion is based on the word of the Dimonds.  I've explained this to you half a dozen times at least, so you know it's a lie.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2021, 12:33:59 PM »
Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 18, 2021, 11:38:07 AM
All the copy and paste material from Xaviersem has been answered years ago ad-nauseum, it is old material. Been there seen that (10+ years on CI) and answered it more than enough times. Today, I only look at the big picture, what does the person believe? I have spelled out what I believe, and I do not care if someone else wants to believe otherwise, at least after I have explained my position simply. Why do people like XavierSem and Lover of Truth (his predecessor, who wrote 10x what Xaviersem has and was totally refuted in every detail) feel obligated to create hundreds of threads about the ways that non-Catholics can be saved? After many years at this I have concluded that they feel rebuked in their real belief that anyone can be saved by God in the last seconds when He appears to them. I have never seen a strict Thomist post about his harmless belief that a catechumen can be saved by BOD. It is always the false BODers, fake Thomists, that start and proliferate these never ending  threads.

It didn't take long for XavierSem to confirm his real belief, like I concluded above, that anyone can be saved by God in the last seconds when He appears to them (which is taught by no saint):


Quote
Below, Fr. Mueller, in a Catechism approved by Rome, teaches the doctrine verified in the case of Mrs. Rosalie Cohen.

Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.

Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.

Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.


This is what a Catholic must answer when asked about the fate of a non-Catholic:


Quote
The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:
 
“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.


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