Thanks, Pope Ladislaus. I guess since you've infallibly pronounced on the subject of St. Cyprian's opinions, no dissent whatsoever from your ex cathedra declarations can be permitted. Right? :) C'mon. I disagree with your claim about him, that's all. Let me explain why.
I think you may not have read this full text of St. Cyprian. I was speaking of the latter portion: "22. On which place some, as if by
human reasoning they were able to make void the
truth of the
Gospel declaration, object to us the case of
catechumens; asking if any one of these, before he is
baptized in the
Church, should be apprehended and slain on confession of the name, whether he would lose the hope of
salvation and the reward of confession, because he had not previously been born again of water? Let men of this kind, who are aiders and favourers of
heretics,
know therefore, first, that those
catechumens hold the sound
faith and
truth of the
Church, and advance from the divine camp to do battle with the
devil, with a full and sincere acknowledgment of
God the
Father, and of
Christ, and of the
Holy Ghost; then, that they certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of
baptism who are
baptized with the most
glorious and greatest
baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord also said, that He had another
baptism to be
baptized with. But the same Lord declares in the
Gospel, that those who are
baptized in their own blood, and sanctified by suffering, are perfected, and obtain the
grace of the divine promise, when He speaks to the thief believing and confessing in His very passion, and promises that he should be with Himself in paradise. Wherefore we who are set over the
faith and
truth ought not to deceive and mislead those who come to the
faith and
truth, and repent, and beg that their
sins should be remitted to them; but to instruct them when corrected by us, and reformed for the
kingdom of heaven by celestial discipline.
23. But some one says, What, then, shall become of those who in past times, coming from
heresy to the
Church, were received without
baptism?
The Lord is able by His mercy to give indulgence, and not to separate from the gifts of His Church those who by simplicity were admitted into the Church, and in the Church have fallen asleep." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050672.htm St. Cyprian's answer suggests he believed the Grace of Baptism would be given to them, though he believed they were without Baptism.
The excerpt from "Desire and Deception" is thoroughly ridiculous and is nothing more than the author's uninformed opinion.
Pope Innocent III approved the teachings of St. Augustine and St. Ambrose as being in favor of Baptism of Desire.
The author tries in vain to deny or minimize this brute fact. A Priest invalidly baptized would not have received the Character of the other Sacraments. It doesn't follow that he was deprived of the necessary Graces of Baptism, in particular Justification, to be saved.
Next, you missed this from Pope Innocent III: "
Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Apostolicam Sedem).”Why prayers and sacrifices? Because the person received justification through BOD, but needed prayers to be saved. You didn't answer many of my questions on the other thread regarding this.1. Why did St. Ambrose pray for Valentian's Soul, if he was saved by BOB or Water Baptism? 2. You claimed post-Tridentine manuals called BOD "a disputed question". Where are they?Your interpretation of the other passage is your own misunderstanding, None of the Doctors understand it that way. St. Padre Pio and St. John Vianney are witnesses to the fact that BOD can save no matter your semantics over "taught".
You BOD-deniers have nothing and you cite nothing. You just give a long list of excuses as to why everyone except you are mistaken.
We Catholics who believe in BOD, Perfect Contrition and Spiritual Communion stand with Trent, the Popes, the Catechisms, the Manuals, the Doctors, the Saints, the Fathers, the Scriptures and all of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church.
You stand on the word of two misguided monks, who think they've discovered a new "heresy" in Trent. Blind guides of the blind.
Edit: Yes, Incredulous, one has to convert to the Catholic Faith, at least in the hour of death, in order to be saved.
I was just done with this post before I saw your reply. I will post Fr. Mueller, in a Catechism approved by Rome, later on.
Topic: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire! (Read 3251 times)