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Author Topic: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!  (Read 4398 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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There are many other examples, and even one counter-example is sufficient to disprove a universal negative: "no soul is saved by Baptism of Desire" is disproved by a single counter-example. (3) St. Cyprian said those who came to the Church without Baptism would be saved, because the Lord would give them the Grace for it; (4) St. Ambrose said Valentian was saved, and prayed for him, showing Valentian was saved by BOD, not BOB, nor Water Baptism; (5) Pope Innocent III said a Priest who was invalidly Baptized was saved. The Pope then endorsed the opinions of St. Augustine and St. Ambrose on BOD, and commanded prayers and sacrifices for his soul.

You persist in your lies even after having been corrected.  St. Cyprian rejected BoD; he believed in BoB but not BoD.  St. Ambrose did not teach that Valentinian was saved.  Innocent III expressed an opinion (assuming the letter attributed to him was even genuine, as it's disputed).  And St. Augustine rejected BoD.

Offline Ladislaus

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You cite Innocent III as the dogmatic source for BoD and then also cite St. Alphonsus' teaching that those saved through BoD experience Purgatory.

But Innocent III elsewhere (dogmatically?) rejects the teaching of St. Alphonsus, which then by the same standard St. Alphonsus applied, must be considered heretical.

Quote
[one saved by BOD] would have rushed to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith


Offline Ladislaus

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POPE INNOCENT II
 
OBJECTION-  Pope Innocent II taught that a priest could be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism by his desire for it and his confession of the true faith (Denzinger 388): 
 
To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of holy mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland.  Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where, among other things it is written, ‘Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.’  Read again in the book of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing.  Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Apostolicam Sedem).”
 
ANSWERFirst of all, there is no such thing as a priest who has not been baptized.  The Church teaches that one who has not been baptized cannot receive the priesthood validly.  This problem alone demonstrates that the above statement is not infallible.  Secondly, the date of this docuмent is unknown, the author is unknown – it is by no means clear that it was Innocent II – and the person to whom it is addressed is unknown!  Could such a docuмent ever prove anything?  No.  It remains a mystery why a docuмent of such doubtful authenticity found its way into Denzinger, a handbook of dogmatic statements.  This is probably because Denzinger was edited by Karl Rahner, a notorious heretic, whose heretical bias caused him to present this clearly non-magisterial statement as Magisterial, for he is a believer in baptism of desire.
 
     To illustrate the lack of magisterial authority of the previous letter allegedly from Pope Innocent II, I will quote from Thomas Hutchinson’s book, Desire and Deception (pp. 31-32):
 
“We speak of the letter Apostolicam Sedem, written at the behest of Pope Innocent II (1130-1143), at an unknown date to an unnamed bishop of Cremona.  The latter had written an inquiry to the Pope regarding the case of a priest who apparently had died without being baptized.  Of course, it has been defined that, in such a case, he was no priest, since the sacrament of orders may only be conferred validly upon the baptized.
             
           ---- Text of letter omitted because it has been listed already ----
    
     “Now, there are more than a few problems connected with this letter.  Firstly, it depends entirely on the witness of Saints Ambrose and Augustine for its conclusion.  Its premises are false, as the Fathers in question did not actually hold the opinions herein imputed to them.  (author: as noted a mere sentimental speculative utterance does not prove they hold to this as official teaching)…
     “Lastly, there is even a question of who wrote this letter.  Many authorities ascribe it to Innocent III (1198-1216).  This question is mentioned in Denzinger.  The letter is certainly not in keeping with the totality of his declarations either.  In any case, a gap of 55 years separated the two pontificates.  So a private letter of uncertain date, authorship, and destination, based upon false premises and contradicting innumerable indisputably valid and solemn docuмents, is pretended to carry the weight of the Magisterium on its shoulders.  Were any other doctrine concerned, this missive (letter) would not even be given any consideration.  As we shall see, however, mystification and deception are part and parcel of the history of this topic of Salvation.  Perhaps this letter was attributed to Innocent III because of his statement that the words of consecration at Mass do not actually have to be said by the priest, but only thought internally --- a sort of Eucharist by Desire.  Later Saint Thomas Aquinas took him to task on this point.
     “But Innocent III is indeed the key to understanding the original teaching of the Church on this topic.  It was in his time (as always until the Second Plenary Council of Baltimore) forbidden to bury the unbaptized (whether catechumens or even children of Catholic parents) in consecrated ground.  He explained the rationale for this law, writing:  ‘It has been decreed by the sacred canons that we are to have no communion with those who are dead, if we have not communicated with them while alive’ (Decr. III, XXVIII, xii).”  - end of transcript from Desire and Deception.
 

     These considerations dismiss any argument in favor of baptism of desire from this letter.  The letter, while certainly not infallible, may indeed be a forgery. 

Offline Ladislaus

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You also lie in claiming that St. John Vianney "taught" anything.

Allegedly he simply told someone Fr. that he would receive a letter that would console him.

Allegedly this letter was written by some unknown alleged mystic.

Nowhere did St. John Vianney endorse its contents, if it even existed, but merely said that Fr. would be "consoled" by it ... which he was (allegedly).

This proves something?

As with any popular saint, thousands of apocryphal sayings are alleged of them, most of which are completely made up.  There are many such attributed to Padre Pio that have been debunked as false.

All the copy and paste material from Xaviersem has been answered years ago ad-nauseum, it is old material. Been there seen that (10+ years on CI) and answered it more than enough times. Today, I only look at the big picture, what does the person believe? I have spelled out what I believe, and I do not care if someone else wants to believe otherwise, at least after I have explained my position simply. Why do people like XavierSem and Lover of Truth (his predecessor, who wrote 10x what Xaviersem has and was totally refuted in every detail) feel obligated to create hundreds of threads about the ways that non-Catholics can be saved? After many years at this I have concluded that they feel rebuked in their real belief that anyone can be saved by God in the last seconds when He appears to them. I have never seen a strict Thomist post about his harmless belief that a catechumen can be saved by BOD. It is always the false BODers, fake Thomists, that start and proliferate these never ending  threads.