Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!  (Read 4392 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2021, 11:59:40 AM »
Last Tradhican asks for third time:
I didn’t ask you what you agree with, I asked you : all I need to know is just if you reject these examples of salvation by implicit faith below , very simple, yes or no?

 
 Do you reject these examples of salvation by implicit faith, the teaching that non-Catholics can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards?
:
 
 From the book  Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre:
 
 1. Page 216: “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.  There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”
 
 2.Page 217: “One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”
 
 Pages 217-218: “This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned.  It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church:  ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’  When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell.  Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  This must be preached.”
 
 Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006: “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)

Reams of material posted by Xaviersem, but no reply to my simple question above. We have no confirmation of what Xaviersem believes, it appears that he is an implicit faith'er and agrees with the examples I gave. Till he responds clearly, to me he remains a sophist a fɾαυd.

Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2021, 12:00:07 PM »
Below, Fr. Mueller, in a Catechism approved by Rome, teaches the doctrine verified in the case of Mrs. Rosalie Cohen. 

Notice also that precisely those same two doctrines St. Athanasius, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus etc say were confessed.

The Holy Trinity and the Incarnation explicitly: the woman said, "O Jesus God of the Christians ... I believe in You!"

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm

"Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.

Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.

Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.

Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.

Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
A. Eternal damnation.


Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2021, 12:05:36 PM »
In line with Incredulous' s response, I would add: why we should come to theological conclusions based on a obscure story? Should I come to theological conclusions about the stories of the raised dead to only request baptism? 

It sounds like a nice and pious story but, I keep thinking that if the story is true, there is more to it. Author's comments only show Our Lord's message is a devotion His Mother and not to lose hope. There is no comments of BOW or BOD. 


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2021, 12:07:32 PM »
Xavier, your last post was a terrible patchwork of lies and distortions.  You show yourself to be completely dishonest.  I'll try to pick it apart as I have time.

Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2021, 12:09:50 PM »
Below, Fr. Mueller, in a Catechism approved by Rome, teaches the doctrine verified in the case of Mrs. Rosalie Cohen.

Notice also that precisely those same two doctrines St. Athanasius, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus etc say were confessed.

The Holy Trinity and the Incarnation explicitly: the woman said, "O Jesus God of the Christians ... I believe in You!"

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm

"Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.

Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.

Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.

Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.

Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
A. Eternal damnation.
What Fr. Muller describes above is "Explicit" Baptism of Desire and not "implicit"