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Author Topic: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!  (Read 3248 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2021, 11:59:40 AM »
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  • Last Tradhican asks for third time:
    I didn’t ask you what you agree with, I asked you : all I need to know is just if you reject these examples of salvation by implicit faith below , very simple, yes or no?

     
     Do you reject these examples of salvation by implicit faith, the teaching that non-Catholics can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards?
    :
     
     From the book  Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre:
     
     1. Page 216: “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.  There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”
     
     2.Page 217: “One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”
     
     Pages 217-218: “This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned.  It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church:  ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’  When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell.  Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  This must be preached.”
     
     Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006: “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)

    Reams of material posted by Xaviersem, but no reply to my simple question above. We have no confirmation of what Xaviersem believes, it appears that he is an implicit faith'er and agrees with the examples I gave. Till he responds clearly, to me he remains a sophist a fɾαυd.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #16 on: February 18, 2021, 12:00:07 PM »
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  • Below, Fr. Mueller, in a Catechism approved by Rome, teaches the doctrine verified in the case of Mrs. Rosalie Cohen. 

    Notice also that precisely those same two doctrines St. Athanasius, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus etc say were confessed.

    The Holy Trinity and the Incarnation explicitly: the woman said, "O Jesus God of the Christians ... I believe in You!"

    From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm

    "Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
    A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.

    Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
    A. No.

    Q. Why not?
    A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.

    Q. What do you mean by this?
    A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

    Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
    A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.

    Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
    A. Eternal damnation.


    Offline Comrade

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #17 on: February 18, 2021, 12:05:36 PM »
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  • In line with Incredulous' s response, I would add: why we should come to theological conclusions based on a obscure story? Should I come to theological conclusions about the stories of the raised dead to only request baptism? 

    It sounds like a nice and pious story but, I keep thinking that if the story is true, there is more to it. Author's comments only show Our Lord's message is a devotion His Mother and not to lose hope. There is no comments of BOW or BOD. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #18 on: February 18, 2021, 12:07:32 PM »
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  • Xavier, your last post was a terrible patchwork of lies and distortions.  You show yourself to be completely dishonest.  I'll try to pick it apart as I have time.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #19 on: February 18, 2021, 12:09:50 PM »
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  • Below, Fr. Mueller, in a Catechism approved by Rome, teaches the doctrine verified in the case of Mrs. Rosalie Cohen.

    Notice also that precisely those same two doctrines St. Athanasius, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus etc say were confessed.

    The Holy Trinity and the Incarnation explicitly: the woman said, "O Jesus God of the Christians ... I believe in You!"

    From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm

    "Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
    A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.

    Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
    A. No.

    Q. Why not?
    A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.

    Q. What do you mean by this?
    A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

    Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
    A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.

    Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
    A. Eternal damnation.
    What Fr. Muller describes above is "Explicit" Baptism of Desire and not "implicit"


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #20 on: February 18, 2021, 12:14:32 PM »
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  • You stand on the word of two misguided monks, who think they've discovered a new "heresy" in Trent. Blind guides of the blind.

    Let's start with this most brazen of lies.  And you know it's a lie.  I've repeatedly stated that I object to the Dimonds' characterization of BoD as heresy.  I lean toward the opinions of Father Feeney.  I hadn't heard of the Dimond Brothers until long after I came to the conclusion that I don't believe in BoD.  I barely knew anything about Father Feeney either.

    In point of fact, I had believed in BoD for catechumens believing that Trent taught it ... until I actually read the entire Treatise on Justification in Latin.  I realized then and there that Trent wasn't teaching anything of the sort.

    Nor do I rely on anyone's "word."  I've thoroughly studied the question, the origins of the notion, its theological notes, what the Fathers taught about it, and all the other statements both for an against BoD, and I have found the evidence AGAINST BoD to be much stronger than that FOR it.

    So this is a brazen lie on your part.  I'm not sure what point there is in discussing things with a shameless liar.  Really the only reason I respond is to debunk the crap that you post for what it is ... crap.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #21 on: February 18, 2021, 12:25:11 PM »
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  • You can't or don't or won't debate decently, without resorting to absurd ad hominem. I did not lie. It is a work of mercy to instruct you erring souls, who are committing objective mortal sin according to St. Alphonsus and all post-Trent authorities, and I and others are doing it. When I said "you BOD-deniers", I wasn't referring to you alone. I've said clearly I don't consider SBC's position to be heretical. But I still don't know if you agree with SBC on EVERYTHING. you have to believe BOD justifies and makes one incorporated into the Soul of the Church, and that those dying in the state of grace will be saved. SBC explicitly believes and confesses these two doctrines/dogmas. Some of you anti-BODers, which is certainly an appropriate qualifier given your vehement opposition to the dogma, refuse to confess these two doctrines/dogmas explicitly.

    Here is SBC: "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacrament in order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16.

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]From: [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588235294118)]https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html[/color]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #22 on: February 18, 2021, 12:30:59 PM »
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  • Next, you missed this from Pope Innocent III: "Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Apostolicam Sedem).”

    Why prayers and sacrifices? Because the person received justification through BOD, but needed prayers to be saved. You didn't answer many of my questions on the other thread regarding this.

    Here you go again re-spamming the same nonsense after I've already addressed it, falsely claiming that I missed it.

    First of all this "Apostolicam Sedem" which you claim was written by Innocent III, well, most authors attribute it to Innocent II, and neither opinion is certain.  I cited a similar letter from Innocent III in which he claims that such "rush to [their] heavenly reward without delay" ... aka bypass Purgatory.

    In another similar letter, Innocent III claimed that transubstantiation happened even if a priest merely thought the words of consecration, and St. Thomas rightly excoriated him for it.  So is this another Magisterial text?

    No, these letters, including some with disputed authorship, are not Magisterial.  I love it how people try to pretend they are by grabbing the first two Latin words "Apostolicam Sedem" to give the false impression that they're bulls or encyclicals or something ... just like the infamous "Suprema Haec".
    So which papal letter do you adhere to, the one by Innocent II or the one by Innocent III?  And do you believe Innocent III's "teaching" that there can be a transubstantiation of desire?

    No, you guy engage in massive "confirmation bias", selecting only the sources that agree with you and then puffing up their authority, claiming that some potentially apocryphal comment amounts to "teaching" (no, this is not semantics, rather, it's dishonesty on your part) if it agrees with you but ignoring all the others.

    You cite only St. Ambrose and St. Augustine but pretend that the others who reject BoD don't exist.  This demonstrates that you are dishonest, a bad-willed liar, to use a Dimond term that here seems to imply.

    Xaiver, do you reject the teaching of St. Gregory nαzιanzen, St. Fulgentius, and St. Gregory of Nyssa ... who rejected Baptism of Desire?  If you were to respond, yes, that yes you reject this teaching, then I might have some hope of your being honest ... but you ignore them and pretend they don't exist.

    You keep spamming the same texts over and over again pretending they're something new, when we acknowledge the existence of these opinions but then disagree.  You on the other hand simply filter out what you don't agree with.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #23 on: February 18, 2021, 12:32:21 PM »
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  • You can't or don't or won't debate decently, without resorting to absurd ad hominem. I did not lie. 

    No, buddy, you absolutely did lie, claiming that my opinion is based on the word of the Dimonds.  I've explained this to you half a dozen times at least, so you know it's a lie.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #24 on: February 18, 2021, 12:33:59 PM »
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  • All the copy and paste material from Xaviersem has been answered years ago ad-nauseum, it is old material. Been there seen that (10+ years on CI) and answered it more than enough times. Today, I only look at the big picture, what does the person believe? I have spelled out what I believe, and I do not care if someone else wants to believe otherwise, at least after I have explained my position simply. Why do people like XavierSem and Lover of Truth (his predecessor, who wrote 10x what Xaviersem has and was totally refuted in every detail) feel obligated to create hundreds of threads about the ways that non-Catholics can be saved? After many years at this I have concluded that they feel rebuked in their real belief that anyone can be saved by God in the last seconds when He appears to them. I have never seen a strict Thomist post about his harmless belief that a catechumen can be saved by BOD. It is always the false BODers, fake Thomists, that start and proliferate these never ending  threads.

    It didn't take long for XavierSem to confirm his real belief, like I concluded above, that anyone can be saved by God in the last seconds when He appears to them (which is taught by no saint):


    Quote
    Below, Fr. Mueller, in a Catechism approved by Rome, teaches the doctrine verified in the case of Mrs. Rosalie Cohen.

    Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
    A. No.

    Q. Why not?
    A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.

    Q. What do you mean by this?
    A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.


    This is what a Catholic must answer when asked about the fate of a non-Catholic:


    Quote
    The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:
     
    “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.



    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #25 on: February 18, 2021, 12:41:30 PM »
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  • Xavier, your last post was a terrible patchwork of lies and distortions.  You show yourself to be completely dishonest.  I'll try to pick it apart as I have time.
    Why bother? Just have him reveal his real belief. He is a fɾαυd pretending to limit his belief to the harmless BOD of the catechumen when his real belief is the same as Lover of Truth and all the others like them. He simply believes that at death when God appears to the infidel in person and shows them the truth, that they will convert and be saved without the sacrament of baptism. So, much for faith and an invisible God! He won't even answer my simple question, how does anyone expect him to answer anything clearly? I do not think he reads anything of what anyone writes before copy and pasting more old material.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #26 on: February 18, 2021, 01:00:50 PM »
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  • You are clearly influenced by the Dimonds to an extent. Your malicious accusations are another proof of it, Ladislaus. The Dimonds have no charity toward anyone, and have excommunicated everyone including you. Yet you say, "This demonstrates that you are dishonest, a bad-willed liar, to use a Dimond term that here seems to imply." That you use their terminology shows you agree with their slimy methods. I am a practicing Catholic regardless of whatever you choose to believe. I do not believe in lies. I believe in Truth and in confessing the Truth. If there is a serious doubt about something, that doubt needs to be resolved by reference to Catholic authorities. 

    These words: "would have rushed to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith" can very well mean the person who baptized himself invalidly, and received Baptism of Desire, went to Heaven before the end of the world, and not after the Resurrection, and nothing more. You interpret it differently based on your own idea.

    The other letter is clear. And you didn't answer my question about Emperor Valentian. For the nth time. Nor about the elusive manual.

    Next, cite the letter from Pope Innocent III you are talking about. Sometimes a Pope gives an opinion without deciding the question.

    That's what St. Thomas, IIRC, was talking about. That doesn't apply here because the Pope is deciding a question the Bishop asked.

    Pope Pius XII said when a Pope decides a question up until that time disputed, that question is no longer an open question among Catholics. If you can cite just one manual, as I keep asking you, post Innocent III or post Trent, that says BOD is open, I'll change my mind. Can you? Can you show me any Doctor in the whole last millenium who denies BOD, or even says its an open question?

    I have no idea why you keep citing St. Gregory of Nyssa. St. Gregory of Nyssa was a well known universalist who believed in apocatastasis. The Church later rejected the Origenism behind it in the Fifth Ecuмenical Council. Still want to believe an individual Father is infallible, even after the Church has closed the question in the opposite direction? I believe exactly as St. Robert believed. Baptism of Blood was always certain, even in the Patristic Age, but Baptism of Desire, at first disputed, was settled by the Church later.

    See: "This doctrine was explicitly taught by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and in more than one passage. It first occurs in his "De animâ et resurrectione" (P.G., XLVI, cols. 100, 101) where, in speaking of the punishment by fire assigned to souls after death, he compares it to the process whereby gold is refined in a furnace, through being separated from the dross with which it is alloyed." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

    MR. Last Tradhican, that Catechism I cited was approved by Rome, so you are wrong. I confess those who die as infidels are lost. 

    I believe those who die with the Catholic Faith, having received Baptism of Desire or of Perfect Contrition, will be saved.

    I know that will not be enough for you, who will still find various reasons to continue to deny, or at least not confess, BOD.

    You know you cannot condemn us who believe in BOD without also condemning Pope St. Pius X and St. Alphonsus etc.

    Either you condemn them also, like Ibranyi heretically does, or you admit that you have no grounds to oppose those who follow them.

    Pope St. Pius X, whom you quoted above, clearly teaches BOD in his Catechism. Both are true: BOD, and those who die as infidels are lost. You deny one. I believe both. If Pope St. Pius X were here, and you obstinately persisted in denying BOD, H.H. would excommunicate you, and you know it. He cannot and will not excommunicate those of us whose only fault is we believe ALL his teaching. Only the future holy Pope will probably be able to settle this controversy. You BOD-deniers probably won't like how it ends. I hope you will submit to the Church at least at that future time. In the meanwhile, condemn the Saints as Ibranyi does, or admit you cannot condemn those who hold to the teaching of the Popes, Doctors and Saints. You are in error, not us.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #27 on: February 18, 2021, 02:16:08 PM »
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  •  I confess those who die as infidels are lost. I believe those who die with the Catholic Faith, having received Baptism of Desire or of Perfect Contrition, will be saved.
    Translation to the truth:


    Quote
    I XavierSem confess that those who die as infidels are lost, however, no one but God knows who the infidels are and who did not die with the Catholic Faith, not having received Baptism of Desire or Perfect Contrition in the last seconds when God appeared to them. Baptism of desire can save people in all religions who "only appear" to have died as non-Catholics.

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #28 on: February 18, 2021, 02:27:50 PM »
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  • I thought the Catechism of Pope SPX was published after his death. Is it fair to attribute everything in that catechism to him?  Also, I remember reading that not all catechisms are infallible. I am not trying to play the "infallibility" card. Just sayin'.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire!
    « Reply #29 on: February 18, 2021, 02:41:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    Tallin Trad asked: Now that the Catholic Church has wrecked itself and 99% blindly follow Francis the destroyer, there is not much salvation inside it either.

    I'd say I am reasonably sure, 90% that both the sincere and virtuous Tibetan monk and the modern contracepted Catholic Democrat mother and father of two children are BOTH damned.

    The second most likely option 10% is that the monk is saved and the modern Catholic Bıdɛn supporting parents are damned.   The monk has at least been as virtuous as he could be.

    I would assume the Good Samaritan went to heaven otherwise what was the point of the story?  I know he was fictional but such people exist in real life.  I don't see how in justice a Samaritan who did not know Christ is saved but a Tibetan monk is not.
    Good Samaritan did not need to be baptized, he died before the new covenant and did not go to heaven. He went to paradise to be with all the just from Adam and Eve on up, who also were saved to paradise without baptism. At the Ascension, Our Lord opened the gates of Heaven and all the souls in paradise were finally able to enter.

    As to the monk and all "good" non-Catholics vs. bad Catholics:

    St. Peter Julian Eymard – Bad Catholic vs Good Protestant

    People often say, “It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.” That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!

    St. Peter Julian Eymard