Author Topic: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire! (Read 4396 times)

Incredulous · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2021, 11:38:57 AM »

Excerpt from XavierSem's post:
This leap of faith and hope in Jesus was the last sentiment of that soul; it was made at the moment when she brought towards the throne of the divine mercy. Breaking away the weak bonds which held her to her mortal casing, she fell at the feet of Him who had been her Saviour (a moment) before being her Judge."

Okay,understand that it is through God's grace which allows for the conversion of Hearts.
So she converted at the last minute and wanted Baptism? No mention of that in the account?

But she had the energy to fall down on her knees.

Did Our Lord Baptize her at this moment? He certainly could have.

In Mother Mary's miraculous conversion of the Jew, Alphonse Ratisbonne, the very first thing he requested when getting-up off his knees in front of Our Lady was a Water Baptism.

On final comment: If as you say, it took years of prayers from her Holy religious son to bring our Lady's intercession on such a perfidious soul, how unlikely is it that millions of other souls who do not believe, who have no rigorous prayers, who lack water Baptism, can so easily acquire it?

Can you for one moment consider the political correctness that BOD and BOB provide to the perfidious Jҽωs and the non Catholic world?

BOB and BOD ultimately mean, "We don't need to be a member of the Catholic Church!"

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2021, 11:43:54 AM »

Old posting of mine:

Millions of examples of people miraculously hanging on to life, then they are baptized and die. 100's of examples of people being raised from the dead just to be baptized, here's a few examples:

From : Peter Claver: Saint of the Slaves, by Fr. Angel Valltiera, S.J., Burns and Oates, London, 1960, pp. 221,222.:

"The affair of the slave Augustina, who served in the house of Captain Vincente de Villalobos, was one of the strangest in the life of Claver...When Augustina was in her last agony Villalobos went in search of Claver. When the latter arrived the body was already being prepared for the shroud and he found it cold to the touch. His expression suddenly changed and he amazed everyone by crying aloud, "Augustina, Augustina." He sprinkled her with holy water, he knelt by her, and prayed for an hour. Suddenly the supposedly dead woman began to move...All fell on their knees. Augustina stared at Claver, and as if awakening from a deep sleep said, "Jesus, Jesus, how tired I am!" Claver told her to pray with all her heart and repent her sins, but those standing by, moved by curiosity, begged him to ask her where she came from. He did so, and she said these words: "I am come from journeying along a long road. It was a beautiful road, and after I had gone a long way down it I met a white man of great beauty who stood before me and said, 'Stop, you cannot go further.' I asked him what I should do, and he replied, 'Go back the way you have come, to the house you have left.' This I have done, but I cannot tell how." On hearing this Claver told them all to leave the room and leave him alone with her because he wished to hear her confession. He prepared her and told her that complete confession of her sins was of immense importance if she wanted to enter that paradise of which she had had a glimpse. She obeyed him, and as he heard her confession it became clear to Claver that she was not baptized. He straightway ordered water to be brought, and a candle and a crucifix. Her owners answered that they had had Augustina in their house for twenty years and that she behaved in all things like themselves. She had gone to confession, to Mass, and performed all her Christian duties, and therefore she did not need Baptism, nor could she receive it. But Claver was certain that they were wrong and insisted, baptizing her in the presence of all, to the great delight of her soul and his, for a few minutes after she had received the sacraments she died in the presence of the whole family."

22 Peter Claver: Saint of the Slaves, Fr. Angel Valltiera, S.J., Burns and Oates, London, 1960, pp. 221,222.

St. Vincent Ferrer –
There was a rich Jew of Andalusia, named Abraham, who began to leave a church in anger while Vincent was preach-ing. The Jew did not like what he was hearing. As some peo¬ple at the door opposed his passing through, St. Vincent cried out: "Let him go! Come away all of you at once, and leave the passage free!" The people did as he ordered, and at the instant the Jew left, part of the porch structure fell on him and crushed him to death. Then the saint rose from his chair and went to the body. He knelt there in prayer. Abraham came to life, and his first words were: "The religion of the Jҽωs is not the true faith. The True Faith is that of the Christians."

  In memory of this event the Jew was baptized Elias (in honor of the prophet who had raised the boy from the dead). The new convert established a pious foundation in the church of the "accident" and the miracle. Bishop Peter Ranzano's account was used for this version of the miracle.

St. Patrick –
In the country of Neyll, a King Echu allowed St. Patrick to receive his beloved daughter Cynnia as a nun, though he bewailed the fact that his royal line would thereby end without issue. The king exacted a promise from Patrick not to insist that he be baptized, yet to promise him the heavenly kingdom. Patrick agreed, and left the matter in the hands of God.

Sometime later King Echu lay dying. He sent a messenger to St. Patrick to tell him he desired Baptism and the heavenly kingdom. To those around him the King gave an order that he not be buried until Patrick came. Patrick, then in the monastery of Saballum, two days' journey away, knew of the situation through the Holy Spirit before the messenger even arrived. He left to go to the King, but arrived to find Echu dead.

St. Patrick revived the King, instructed him, and baptized him. He asked Echu to relate what he had seen of the joys of the just and the pains of the wicked, so that his account could be used for the proving of Patrick's preaching. Echu told of many other-world wonders and of how, in the heavenly country, he had seen the place that Patrick promised him. But the King could not enter in because he was unbaptized.

Then St. Patrick asked Echu if he would rather live longer in this world, or go to the place prepared for him in the heavenly kingdom. The King answered that all the world had was emptiest smoke compared to the celestial joys. Then having received the Eucharist, he fell asleep in the Lord.

St. Joan of Arc prays and brings a dead baby back to life so that it might be baptized. -Baby said to have been dead for 3 days
  In the Spring of 1430, Joan had just arrived in Lagny-sur-Marne, France, where she was to lead the French forces there against the English. It was there, in the midst of war, that the miracle occurred.

  According to her own testimony, she was called upon to join some other young women who were praying in a Church beseeching God and the Blessed Virgin Mary on behalf of a dead baby, that it might be revived long enough to baptize it. Here is Joan's own testimony

  "I was told that the girls of the town were gathered before the statue of our Lady and wanted me to come and pray to God and our Lady to bring a baby back to life. So I went and prayed with the others. And finally life appeared in him, and he yawned three times. Then he was baptized, and soon afterwords he died, and was buried in consecrated ground.

  For three days, I was told, he had shown no signs of life, and he was as black as my jacket. But when he yawned his color began to come back. And I was on my knees there with the other girls, praying before our Lady."

Father Point
  Fr. Point, S.J. was a fellow Jesuit Missionary to the Indians with Fr. De Smet in the 19th century. He tells a very interesting story about the miraculous resuscitation for baptism of a person who had been instructed in the Faith but apparently died without receiving the sacrament.
Father Point, S.J., quoted in The Life of Fr. De Smet, pp. 165-166 >
  "One morning, upon leaving the Church I met an Indian woman, who said: ‘So-and-so is not well.’ She (the person who was not well) was not yet a catechumen and I said I would go to see her. An hour later the same person (who came and told him the person is not well), who was her sister, came to me saying she was dead. I ran to the tent, hoping she might be mistaken, and found a crowd of relatives around the bed, repeating, 'She is dead – she has not breathed for some time.' To assure myself, I leaned over the body; there was no sign of life. I reproved these excellent people for not telling me at once of the gravity of the situation, adding,

'May God forgive me!’ Then, rather impatiently, I said, 'Pray!' and all fell on their knees and prayed devoutly.

"I again leaned over the supposed corpse and said, 'The Black Robe is here: do you wish him to baptize you?' At the word baptism I saw a slight tremor of the lower lip; then both lips moved, making me certain that she understood. She had already been instructed, so I at once baptized her, and she rose from her bier, making the sign of the cross. Today she is out hunting and is fully persuaded that she died at the time I have recounted."

Saint Francis De Sales, died 1622 A.D. >
  In the life of St. Francis De Sales we also find a child miraculously raised from the dead specifically for the Sacrament of Baptism.
"A baby, the child of a heretic mother, had died without baptism. St. Francis had gone to speak to the mother about Catholic doctrine, and prayed that the child would be restored to life long enough to receive Baptism. His prayer was granted, and the whole family became Catholic."

Saint Stephen, died c. 33 A.D. (through his intervention) >
"At Uzale, a woman had an infant son… Unfortunately, he died before they had time to baptize him. His mother was overwhelmed with grief, more for his being deprived of Life Eternal than because he was dead to her. Full of confidence, she took the dead child and publicly carried him to the Church of St. Stephen, the first martyr. There she commenced to pray for the son she had just lost. Her son moved, uttered a cry, and was suddenly restored to life. She immєdιαtely brought him to the priests; and, after receiving the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, he died anew."

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Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2021, 11:46:52 AM »

Thanks, Pope Ladislaus. I guess since you've infallibly pronounced on the subject of St. Cyprian's opinions, no dissent whatsoever from your ex cathedra declarations can be permitted. Right? :) C'mon. I disagree with your claim about him, that's all. Let me explain why.

I think you may not have read this full text of St. Cyprian. I was speaking of the latter portion: "22. On which place some, as if by human reasoning they were able to make void the truth of the Gospel declaration, object to us the case of catechumens; asking if any one of these, before he is baptized in the Church, should be apprehended and slain on confession of the name, whether he would lose the hope of salvation and the reward of confession, because he had not previously been born again of water? Let men of this kind, who are aiders and favourers of heretics, know therefore, first, that those catechumens hold the sound faith and truth of the Church, and advance from the divine camp to do battle with the devil, with a full and sincere acknowledgment of God the Father, and of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost; then, that they certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord also said, that He had another baptism to be baptized with. But the same Lord declares in the Gospel, that those who are baptized in their own blood, and sanctified by suffering, are perfected, and obtain the grace of the divine promise, when He speaks to the thief believing and confessing in His very passion, and promises that he should be with Himself in paradise. Wherefore we who are set over the faith and truth ought not to deceive and mislead those who come to the faith and truth, and repent, and beg that their sins should be remitted to them; but to instruct them when corrected by us, and reformed for the kingdom of heaven by celestial discipline.

23. But some one says, What, then, shall become of those who in past times, coming from heresy to the Church, were received without baptism? The Lord is able by His mercy to give indulgence, and not to separate from the gifts of His Church those who by simplicity were admitted into the Church, and in the Church have fallen asleep." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050672.htm St. Cyprian's answer suggests he believed the Grace of Baptism would be given to them, though he believed they were without Baptism.

The excerpt from "Desire and Deception" is thoroughly ridiculous and is nothing more than the author's uninformed opinion.

Pope Innocent III approved the teachings of St. Augustine and St. Ambrose as being in favor of Baptism of Desire.

The author tries in vain to deny or minimize this brute fact. A Priest invalidly baptized would not have received the Character of the other Sacraments. It doesn't follow that he was deprived of the necessary Graces of Baptism, in particular Justification, to be saved.

Next, you missed this from Pope Innocent III: "Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Apostolicam Sedem).”

Why prayers and sacrifices? Because the person received justification through BOD, but needed prayers to be saved. You didn't answer many of my questions on the other thread regarding this.

1. Why did St. Ambrose pray for Valentian's Soul, if he was saved by BOB or Water Baptism?
2. You claimed post-Tridentine manuals called BOD "a disputed question". Where are they?

Your interpretation of the other passage is your own misunderstanding, None of the Doctors understand it that way.

St. Padre Pio and St. John Vianney are witnesses to the fact that BOD can save no matter your semantics over "taught".

You BOD-deniers have nothing and you cite nothing. You just give a long list of excuses as to why everyone except you are mistaken.

We Catholics who believe in BOD, Perfect Contrition and Spiritual Communion stand with Trent, the Popes, the Catechisms, the Manuals, the Doctors, the Saints, the Fathers, the Scriptures and all of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church.

You stand on the word of two misguided monks, who think they've discovered a new "heresy" in Trent. Blind guides of the blind.

Edit: Yes, Incredulous, one has to convert to the Catholic Faith, at least in the hour of death, in order to be saved.

I was just done with this post before I saw your reply. I will post Fr. Mueller, in a Catechism approved by Rome, later on.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2021, 11:50:51 AM »

alleged story:

Quote

Florence Fine Herman in 1965 asked Padre Pio to pray for her father who had terminal ALS. He promised to take him under his protection. He was a devout Jew. Two years later he died. She was told by friends that without baptism one cannot be saved. She went back to Padre Pio with a heavy heart. She took the courage to ask: “Where is my father?” Padre Pio replied: “Julius Fine is saved. But we need to pray a lot for him.”

If I had a dollar or every fake saying or story attributed to Padre Pio, I could retire. These friends who told her that "without baptism one cannot be saved" were correct. I'm actually surprised anyone still believed that in 1965.

In any case, all we have is a third-hand report of something that Florence Herman claimed that Padre Pio said to her privately.

This Xavier characterizes as a "teaching" of Padre Pio.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2021, 11:55:29 AM »

You'll notice, Xavier, that St. Cyprian is referring to Baptism of Blood. Notice also that he says that such a one is not deprived of the SACRAMENT of Baptism. Later BoD theorists claim that he was in error. But elsewhere St. Cyprian speaks of martyrs as having had their blood replace water and the angels pronouncing the words of Baptism. He considered martyrdom to be a mystical celebration of the SACRAMENT and not as any exception to the necessity of Baptism.

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Author Topic: St. John Vianney: Fr. Herman Cohen's Mother was Saved by Baptism of Desire! (Read 4396 times)

Incredulous

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Last Tradhican

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Nishant Xavier

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Ladislaus

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Ladislaus

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