Author Topic: St. John Eudes "You Commit an Enormous Sin if..." (Read 1401 times)

MarylandTrad · « **on:** May 26, 2017, 09:16:22 PM »

St. John Eudes, Man's Contract with God in Baptism
https://archive.org/stream/MansContractWithGodInBaptism#page/n47/mode/2up/search/salvation

"But, that you may have a true faith in those things which God has revealed, it is necessary that you should believe in the Catholic Church, in which alone you can learn with certainty what God has revealed. For this reason, after you have been asked if you believe in God, you are also asked if you believe in the Catholic Church.

Certainly those who do not believe in the Catholic Church cannot have divine faith in the mysteries which they believe, but only natural and human faith; a faith of their own fancy, founded on the light of their own judgment, subject to error, and not on the promises of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church alone possesses these promises, and on her testimony alone rests the foundation of Christian faith. As she possesses the divine promises for all days, even to the end of ages, there can be no reason to doubt whatever she proposes to our belief.

Thank God for having given you the precious gift of faith, and having made you a child of the holy Catholic Church, which is the faithful repository of the truths of salvation, and which all Christians are obliged to acknowledge as the true Church. In saying, "I believe in the holy Catholic Church' you united yourself inseparably to this holy mother; you believe, without hesitation, all that she proposes, as proposed to you by Jesus Christ himself, who is ever with her in her instructions. Reject, then, with horror, everything at variance with her teachings, and regard it as an error calculated to endanger your faith.

However ignorant you may be, you have the true faith if you believe, without exception, all the holy Catholic Church believes and teaches; on the other hand, however learned you may be, you lose the gift and the virtue of faith if you reject any doctrine which she teaches; for her faith is your rule. "As there is but one faith," says St. Paul, "to wish to divide it, is to destroy it." Heretics not only differ from the Church in faith, but they also differ amongst themselves, a proof that they have not the true faith, which is one. The holy Catholic Church never has suffered, and never will suffer, a difference of faith in regard to any article. Her faith is the same in all times, in all places, and in all her true children. Thus her faith is one and the only true faith. You should be most desirous to preserve the faith in all its purity, since without it, it is impossible to do anything which merits Heaven. "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Those who do not possess it may practice all the moral virtues, justice, sobriety, chastity, alms-deeds, prayers, mortification; and not only is this the case with heretics, but it is a truth which should be borne in mind, that these good actions, unless they have faith for their principle, will never merit Heaven for them. The law of Moses, all holy as it was, could save only those who observed it through faith.

When, therefore, you observe that those who believe not in the Church, practice some good works, offer many prayers, and lead an austere life, do not believe that they are on this account in the way of salvation, unless they have true faith; you commit an enormous sin if you believe that they can be saved outside of the Church; that they can have faith without believing in her, or that they can be saved without faith."

https://archive.org/stream/MansContractWithGodInBaptism#page/n47/mode/2up/search/salvation

BumphreyHogart · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2017, 05:58:11 AM »

Quote from: MarylandTrad on May 26, 2017, 09:16:22 PM

St. John Eudes, Man's Contract with God in Baptism
https://archive.org/stream/MansContractWithGodInBaptism#page/n47/mode/2up/search/salvation

Do you know that "Man's contact with God in Baptism" also includes the baptism of desire?

Do you know that it is an enormous sin to deny something taught in the Baltimore Catechism?

Arvinger · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2017, 12:34:57 PM »

Quote from: BumphreyHogart on May 27, 2017, 05:58:11 AM

Do you know that "Man's contact with God in Baptism" also includes the baptism of desire?

Do you know that nobody can receive baptism, whether water or of desire, without explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Trinity, and that all who die without this faith (i.e. ignorant or in rejection of Christ and the Trinity) cannot be saved, as the Athanasian Creed teaches?

MarylandTrad · « **Reply #3 on:** May 27, 2017, 12:40:51 PM »

St. John Eudes, Man's Contract with God in Baptism
https://archive.org/stream/MansContractWithGodInBaptism#page/n63/mode/2up/search/ceremonies

"The Holy Catholic Church, always directed by Jesus Christ her head, and by the Holy Ghost her spouse, suffers no doubt to exist in the mind of her children as to the ceremonies which she practices in the administration of the sacraments, being most holy and full of salutary instructions. This is remarkable in the ceremonies which she prescribes to be used in the administration of Baptism…

Firstly, when you had been presented to the church to receive Baptism, you were treated as a person in the possession of the devil, for the priest pronounced over you the exorcism of the church, commanding the wicked spirit to depart from you, and to give place to the Holy Ghost.

This ceremony teaches you that by original sin you were really in possession of the devil, and that he abided in you, but that, through Baptism, he has been cast out of you; that your soul has been purified from the horrible stain which disfigured it, and that the Holy Ghost, having sanctified and ornamented it with his grace, comes to take up his abode in it…

Fifthly, the Priest introduced you into the Church, by saying, "Enter into the house of God, that you may have eternal life." This ceremony teaches you that Baptism enables you to enter into the society of Jesus Christ, and of all the faithful who compose the house or family of God. By this entry, you begin to partake of all the good works of the faithful, and you acquire a right to the sacraments, to the prayers, and to all the other good works which are done in the Church. Moreover, in entering into the church, you have become her child, and have been made a child of God, the heir of God, and co-heir of Jesus Christ; you entered into society and communion with the angels and all the blessed who are in Heaven. By this ceremony you are likewise taught that, in order to be united to Jesus Christ, and to have eternal life, it is necessary to be a member of the Church, and to persevere therein to the end, believing all she teaches, obeying all she commands."

MarylandTrad · « **Reply #4 on:** May 27, 2017, 12:53:26 PM »

Quote from: Arvinger on May 27, 2017, 12:34:57 PM

Do you know that nobody can receive baptism, whether water or of desire, without explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Trinity, and that all who die without this faith (i.e. ignorant or in rejection of Christ and the Trinity) cannot be saved, as the Athanasian Creed teaches?

This is an important point. "Under Pope Clement XI in 1703, when the missionary movement to “ignorant natives” was at its height, all missionaries were explicitly forbidden by the Holy Office to baptize even a barbarian, even if he was dying, unless they elicited from him an explicit act of belief in Jesus Christ. Nor was it enough, declared the Holy Office, for this barbarian to know that God exists and is a remunerator. He must be told all the central mysteries of the Faith that derive from the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation. The Holy Office also declared that a knowledge of these mysteries was necessary for salvation by a necessity of means." http://catholicism.org/bread-of-life.html/7

BumphreyHogart · « **Reply #5 on:** May 27, 2017, 01:42:48 PM »

Quote from: Arvinger on May 27, 2017, 12:34:57 PM

Do you know that nobody can receive baptism, whether water or of desire, without explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Trinity, and that all who die without this faith (i.e. ignorant or in rejection of Christ and the Trinity) cannot be saved, as the Athanasian Creed teaches?

Faith can be implicit for baptism of desire, because God can discern whether it is implied. Man cannot know, so it is ordered that before someone baptizes another, there must be expressed an explicit faith.

Arvinger · « **Reply #6 on:** May 27, 2017, 02:41:38 PM »

Quote from: BumphreyHogart on May 27, 2017, 01:42:48 PM

Faith can be implicit for baptism of desire, because God can discern whether it is implied. Man cannot know, so it is ordered that before someone baptizes another, there must be expressed an explicit faith.

So an idol-worshipper can receive baptism of desire, even though he does not desire baptism at all and does not believe in Jesus Christ and the Trinity. Nobody ever taught that - St. Alphonsus and St. Thomas Aquinas who taught BoD also taught necessity of explicit faith for salvation, they did not support your heresies.

By the way, that pagan with "implicit faith" has to be in the Church for salvation (for we know that there is no salvation outside the Church). So the Church constitutes both of members of visible Catholic Church, and of pagans from different false religions who have "implicit faith". One could say that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church - Vatican II ecclesiology.

Again, the Athanasian Creed:
"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.(...) He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ."

So, to be saved, one must:
1) think of the Trinity (you can't think about something you never heard of - that rules out implicit faith)
2) keep the Catholic faith whole and undefiled (you can't keep whole and undefiled something you never knew about - again, rules out implicit faith).

In other words, a belief that people can be saved without explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity constitutes rejection of the Athanasian Creed and thus a heresy.

It also constitutes rejection of Cantate Domino which teaches that all who die as pagans go to hell. According to implicit faith theory some pagans can be saved if they are invincibly ignorant, which is contrary to the Council of Florence.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #7 on:** May 27, 2017, 02:52:14 PM »

Everyone belonging to a tribe that lives on an uncharted island and never saw anyone to tell them about Christ, were not born there by chance.

Those two posters on CI (who keep changing their names) that keep these discussions going by teaching that anyone can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, can't even convince their lifelong neighbors to convert, but they think that they could convert a native on an island.

No common sense.

St. Augustine on the Errors of Pelagius said:

If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

BumphreyHogart · « **Reply #8 on:** May 27, 2017, 03:46:03 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 27, 2017, 02:52:14 PM

Everyone belonging to a tribe that lives on an uncharted island and never saw anyone to tell them about Christ, were not born there by chance.

So? What's your point?

Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 27, 2017, 02:52:14 PM

Those two posters on CI (who keep changing their names) that keep these discussions going by teaching that anyone can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, can't even convince their lifelong neighbors to convert, but they think that they could convert a native on an island.

Believe it or not, it's often easier to convert a man with an empty slate, than a complicated man whose mind is filled with studious errors and hardened biases.

BumphreyHogart · « **Reply #9 on:** May 27, 2017, 03:54:34 PM »

Quote from: Arvinger on May 27, 2017, 02:41:38 PM

So an idol-worshipper can receive baptism of desire, even though he does not desire baptism at all and does not believe in Jesus Christ and the Trinity. Nobody ever taught that - St. Alphonsus and St. Thomas Aquinas who taught BoD also taught necessity of explicit faith for salvation, they did not support your heresies.

By the way, that pagan with "implicit faith" has to be in the Church for salvation (for we know that there is no salvation outside the Church). So the Church constitutes both of members of visible Catholic Church, and of pagans from different false religions who have "implicit faith". One could say that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church - Vatican II ecclesiology.

Again, the Athanasian Creed:
"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.(...) He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ."

So, to be saved, one must:
1) think of the Trinity (you can't think about something you never heard of - that rules out implicit faith)
2) keep the Catholic faith whole and undefiled (you can't keep whole and undefiled something you never knew about - again, rules out implicit faith).

In other words, a belief that people can be saved without explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity constitutes rejection of the Athanasian Creed and thus a heresy.

It also constitutes rejection of Cantate Domino which teaches that all who die as pagans go to hell. According to implicit faith theory some pagans can be saved if they are invincibly ignorant, which is contrary to the Council of Florence.

So says you, who are nothing, while Saints and Doctors of the Church scrutinized by Rome and approving, taught otherwise? What arrogance to continue in the path you are going against what Holy Mother Church has approved of!

"baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of
God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true
baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt,
but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the
removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"]
because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a
wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of
desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato"
and of the Council of Trent" - St. Alphonsus

Do you accept this, and understand what "implicit" means here?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #10 on:** May 27, 2017, 05:15:32 PM »

Quote from: MarylandTrad on May 26, 2017, 09:16:22 PM

St. John Eudes, Man's Contract with God in Baptism:
When, therefore, you observe that those who believe not in the Church, practice some good works, offer many prayers, and lead an austere life, do not believe that they are on this account in the way of salvation, unless they have true faith; you commit an enormous sin if you believe that they can be saved outside of the Church; that they can have faith without believing in her, or that they can be saved without faith."

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Ladislaus · « **Reply #11 on:** May 27, 2017, 05:16:32 PM »

According to St. John Eudes, whose works are approved by the Church, Nado commits "enormous sin" on a daily basis here on CathInfo.

BumphreyHogart · « **Reply #12 on:** May 27, 2017, 05:38:31 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on May 27, 2017, 05:16:32 PM

According to St. John Eudes, whose works are approved by the Church, Nado commits "enormous sin" on a daily basis here on CathInfo.

I accept what St. John Eudes said BECAUSE it is approved by the Church. You have shown to condemn things that the Church has approved of.

Arvinger · « **Reply #13 on:** May 27, 2017, 06:31:23 PM »

Quote from: BumphreyHogart on May 27, 2017, 03:54:34 PM

So says you, who are nothing, while Saints and Doctors of the Church scrutinized by Rome and approving, taught otherwise? What arrogance to continue in the path you are going against what Holy Mother Church has approved of!

"baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of
God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true
baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt,
but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the
removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"]
because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a
wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of
desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato"
and of the Council of Trent" - St. Alphonsus

Do you accept this, and understand what "implicit" means here?

Obviously, you won't touch the Athanasian Creed with a ten-foot pole, just as all other Cushingites, because it teaches that nobody can be saved if he does not think of the Trinity.

No Doctor of the Church ever taught that people who die ignorant of Christ can be saved and the Church never approved nor taught such a thing - she teaches exactly contrary.

Yes, I understand what implicit means here, you don't - a person who has explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity might not yet know about baptism and its necessity. But because he believes in essential mysteries of the Catholic faith and accepts teaching authority of the Church, he has "implicit desire for baptism". St. Alphonsus does not teach that people ignorant of Christ can be saved through "baptism of desire" - he actually taught the opposite, that all who are born and die among pagans are lost.

Do you accept the teaching of the Athanasian Creed that to be saved one must think of the Trinity, and that unless one holds the Catholic faith whole and inviolate he will surely be lost?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** May 27, 2017, 06:35:21 PM »

Quote from: BumphreyHogart on May 27, 2017, 05:38:31 PM

I accept what St. John Eudes said BECAUSE it is approved by the Church. You have shown to condemn things that the Church has approved of.

Does this mean that you're now repenting of your public sin?

Author Topic: St. John Eudes "You Commit an Enormous Sin if..." (Read 1401 times)

MarylandTrad

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BumphreyHogart

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Arvinger

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MarylandTrad

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MarylandTrad

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BumphreyHogart

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Arvinger

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Last Tradhican

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BumphreyHogart

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BumphreyHogart

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Ladislaus

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Ladislaus

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BumphreyHogart

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Arvinger

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Ladislaus

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