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Author Topic: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water  (Read 2310 times)

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Online WorldsAway

Re: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water
« Reply #35 on: Today at 04:44:20 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on Yesterday at 05:42:47 PM
Ending up in limbo isn't the same as ending up in hell.
Not really relevant, as you said:

Quote
Except that several of you have explicitly argued that they would see no issue that God lets millions of people with no chance of salvation at all, making the Redeemer's promise to all mankind into a joke !
Are there not millions who die in the womb every year? Where is their "chance of salvation"?
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water
« Reply #36 on: Today at 06:52:15 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on Yesterday at 05:42:47 PM
Ending up in limbo isn't the same as ending up in hell.

To be perfectly honest , I am entirely ignorant on those matters and I am so incompetent that I can only ask AI about the subject.

When asking AI, it points to the school of Salamanca and the writings of a theologian named Francisco Vitoria in a book named Relectio de Indis (1539).

"Also, it is through no fault of theirs that these aborigines have for many centuries been outside the pale of salvation, in that they have been born in sin and void of baptism and the use of reason whereby to seek out the things needful for salvation. Accordingly I for the most part attribute their seeming so unintelligent and stupid to a bad and barbarous upbringing, for even among ourselves we find many peasants who differ little from brutes."
"And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature." [Mark 16:15]

It is with certainty of faith that we know the above command of Our Lord was fulfilled before the death of the last Apostle. All those lacking in faith do not believe this.


"The Lord is patient and full of mercy, taking away iniquity and wickedness, and leaving no man clear, who visitest the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." [Numbers 14:18]

Somewhere along the line, they lost the faith that was preached to them. This is why the aborigines, natives and Indians etc., (and many even today) did not have the faith. Instead of the faith, the sins of the parents are handed down.


"And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.  9 Of sin: because they believed not in me."  [John 16:8,9]

Our Lord says that it is a sin to not believe in Him. Because Christ and the Church are one and the same, it is a sin to not believe in the Church, to be outside of the Church. There is the EENS dogma.


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"There is no inconsistency, indeed, in holding the war to be a just war on both sides, seeing that on one side there is right and on the other side there is invincible ignorance."

This is completely outside of my expertise, so I all I can say is that I should study this when I get the time and I'll be back.

Investigating this might prove definitely who is right about the EENS dogma's interpretation.
The term "invincible ignorance," being incomplete and ambiguous therefore scandalous, should be banished from all Catholic's vocabulary whenever speaking or referring to anything having to do with the subject.

That term should be replaced 100% of the time in thought and word with PPIX's words: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion."

When this is done, all ambiguity is removed, it's true meaning is easily and correctly understood because only then is it understood in the Catholic sense which PPIX was speaking and the Church has always taught as regards the EENS dogma.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water
« Reply #37 on: Today at 08:19:26 AM »
Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 04:44:20 AM
Are there not millions who die in the womb every year? Where is their "chance of salvation"?
This is a fantastic point.  Some BODers have this false notion that God grants to every person the same, exact test on spiritual matters.  Abortion proves He does not.  You might have an emotional reaction and say "That's not fair!".  But God is all-merciful and all-just.  Everything He does is more than fair, as He loves each person with an eternal love.  The problem is, as it has always been, is the human mind is INCAPABLE of understanding God's wisdom, His Providence and His Love.

People ask the stupid question -- Is God bound by His sacraments?  Yes, He is.

Answer -- Is God's power limited, that by creating the sacraments as necessary, that He is then not able to provide these sacraments to everyone?  No, He's not limited at all. 

He's all powerful and He can provide sacraments to anyone, at anytime, in anyway.  ...As countless miracles (even in Scripture) show.  Miraculous springs of water.  Raising people from the dead to be baptized.  Bi-location of saints to catechize.  Even St Padre Pio bi-located to a man trapped in an avalanche to hear his confession. 

God created the invisible truths of logic, math and science and whatever He creates is good and perfect.  If He creates sacraments, with rules, then these rules are part of Himself.  Since God cannot contradict Himself, and since He can neither deceive nor be deceived, then His sacramental laws/rules apply everywhere, always and to all.  God is bound to His sacramental necessities, just as He is bound to Truth, just as He is bound to answer our prayers ("Ask and ye shall receive").  

God does not promise that which He cannot provide.  He does not create that which He cannot sustain.  He does not order that which He cannot manage.  

If God created sacraments and rules which He had to bend or change, then this would be a defect or an error of His Providence, His power and His omniscience.  Of course, that's not possible.
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