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Author Topic: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water  (Read 2461 times)

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Offline Incredulous

Re: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 01:05:34 PM »
Quote from: Lazarus on Yesterday at 12:54:39 PM
Isn't that a form of protestant predestination though?

You're basically saying that anyone born outside the reach of missionaries is predestined to hell.
 It's why Ven. Maria de Agreda also known by the Southwest American Indians as "The Lady in Blue", bilocated to the New World for 11 years. 

Our Lord had shown her the geography of the Americas and the natives who were furthest away from Him.  Ven. Agreda pleaded with Our Lord to let her catechized them.
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Offline Godefroy

Re: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 02:43:57 PM »
Quote from: Lazarus on Yesterday at 12:54:39 PM
Isn't that a form of protestant predestination though?

You're basically saying that anyone born outside the reach of missionaries is predestined to hell.
No one seems to object that God had his chosen people in the old testament. The Catholic Church is the New Israel. 
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 03:29:53 PM »
Quote from: Lazarus on Yesterday at 11:04:36 AM
Before Christopher Colombus set foot in the Americas, did every single Amerindian automatically go to hell because no one could baptize them?

That doesn't seem reasonable to me.
Your question just ignores the numerous miracles that we know about, wherein saints bi-located to the indians and taught them the Faith.  And that's the miracles we KNOW about.  How many saints/priests bi-located and baptized certain indian tribes?  We'll know in heaven.  We don't know now.  Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The main error of many (not all) BOD arguments is reducing baptism to some type of metric, which can be measured.  In other words, people act like materialists...Well, I can't "SEE" where God is helping these pagans, therefore BOD must be the answer.  Well, it's not your job to "see" everything God is doing, nor could you even comprehend His workings.  God doesn't need you to "understand" how salvation works.  It's the height of pride to think it's even possible.
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Online Lazarus

Re: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 04:20:02 PM »
Quote from: Godefroy on Yesterday at 02:43:57 PM
No one seems to object that God had his chosen people in the old testament. The Catholic Church is the New Israel.
God didn't automatically send to hell all non-Israelites even when the Old Testament law was active. 

Saint Thomas Aquinas teaches that the Israelites were bound to the Old Covenant with Abraham and so on, whereas gentiles were bound to Natural Law and the implicit faith in the Redeemer. 

We are not Pharisees. 


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Online Lazarus

Re: St. John Chrysostom on the Necessity of Water
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 04:28:56 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 03:29:53 PM
Your question just ignores the numerous miracles that we know about, wherein saints bi-located to the indians and taught them the Faith.  And that's the miracles we KNOW about.  How many saints/priests bi-located and baptized certain indian tribes?  We'll know in heaven.  We don't know now.  Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The main error of many (not all) BOD arguments is reducing baptism to some type of metric, which can be measured.  In other words, people act like materialists...Well, I can't "SEE" where God is helping these pagans, therefore BOD must be the answer.  Well, it's not your job to "see" everything God is doing, nor could you even comprehend His workings.  God doesn't need you to "understand" how salvation works.  It's the height of pride to think it's even possible.
Except that several of you have explicitly  argued that they would see no issue that God lets millions of people with no chance of salvation at all, making the Redeemer's promise to all mankind into a joke ! 

As for those miracles you talk about, I am very interested in them, what books written by good Catholics or other material can I get to learn about those ?
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