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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 26216 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2023, 04:58:50 PM »
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  • The above from St. Robert Bellarmine who distinguished St. Augustine’s view from that which came later by way of the scholastics, especially St. T. Aquinas.

    Source:

    https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5QadSSWT71abU2TKG0MJX3CqHndUk9XrMIMo5zX8bzjad7S4aZEXFHzbzUO3g_WQWA9teRfOik34_8EcbWDK_C5l8NHCUYrhhYRS9NZtyv7HCDyxpoDvSBWGhpL5AZQGre9-hDAaCtxrdBFZlzc88o8yu13BINjRUPriONOT2chpqkAeQUy2onDfYhH_x4z3vofo_QMCPcahKo_RstetmCMjiwEixcL89V-S7RKoPuzKAIiueFj1UK9gOZdaLedc9v6p0B0UXjRrOQcNtxGMn7gK1VxZ0vQ

    You're just the source of information, aren't you, Random? Some nice light reading. :laugh1:

    It will take time to figure out - or isolate, since none of this appears to be Augustine, but commentary - the actual quotations from St. Augustine. But I look forward to reading it. Thanks.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #46 on: September 13, 2023, 12:33:03 AM »
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  • Lad,

    It is clear, both by Scripture, the Council of Trent, and indeed Augustine's own words, that all men are "condemned" by Adam's sin, and that this "condemnation" falls upon infants who die unbaptized, who endure the "penalty" or punishment of that condemnation, which comes by way of God's "judgment" (again, Rom. 5:16,18).

    No, it's not clear from Sacred Scripture.  There's a completely different trajectory that the Eastern / Greek Fathers took regarding the distinction between nature and grace vs. in the West, where they followed the thinking of St. Augustine.  St. Gregory of nαzιanzen, called "the Theologian", in his famous rejection of BoD, articulated the notion that there are some who are not bad enough to be punished but not good enough to be glorified.  Again, I encourage you to read the CE article on Limbo.  St. Thomas Aquinas clearly articulated the Eastern perspective, that elevation to the supernatural state is a free gift that is undeserved, and thus being deprived of it is not a punishment in the sense that it's a withholding of a free gift.  And you can't just rely upon English words like "condemned" out there but need to cite the original languages, which are more precise.  Now, the Jansenists condemned this view as Pelagian, but their condemnation was condemned, and effectively the Church taught that this was not Pelagianism.

    I'm not too interested in debating this issue, as the Church has never condemned St. Augustine's position, merely exonerated that of St. Thomas as not being Pelagian, and tenable by Catholics.  IMO, both positions are theologically tenable.  I happen to agree with St. Thomas and the Greek Fathers on the matter.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #47 on: September 13, 2023, 08:08:04 AM »
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  • No, it's not clear from Sacred Scripture.  There's a completely different trajectory that the Eastern / Greek Fathers took regarding the distinction between nature and grace vs. in the West, where they followed the thinking of St. Augustine.  St. Gregory of nαzιanzen, called "the Theologian", in his famous rejection of BoD, articulated the notion that there are some who are not bad enough to be punished but not good enough to be glorified.  Again, I encourage you to read the CE article on Limbo.  St. Thomas Aquinas clearly articulated the Eastern perspective, that elevation to the supernatural state is a free gift that is undeserved, and thus being deprived of it is not a punishment in the sense that it's a withholding of a free gift.  And you can't just rely upon English words like "condemned" out there but need to cite the original languages, which are more precise.  Now, the Jansenists condemned this view as Pelagian, but their condemnation was condemned, and effectively the Church taught that this was not Pelagianism.

    I'm not too interested in debating this issue, as the Church has never condemned St. Augustine's position, merely exonerated that of St. Thomas as not being Pelagian, and tenable by Catholics.  IMO, both positions are theologically tenable.  I happen to agree with St. Thomas and the Greek Fathers on the matter.

    True, even if one were to assume that Augustine's view was as rigorous as some claim - i.e., that unbaptized infants who died were delivered to a mild punishment of actual suffering or pain in the "flames of hell" - the Church has not condemned that view, and it is tenable. However, my interest is in the actual view of St. Augustine, and not the assumption of what it was. Is the assumption accurate or not? Based on the actual quotations and what St. Augustine said, I think not . . . so far.

    For both Romans 5:16 and 18, the term from the Vulgate for the English condemnation is condemnātiōnem, a form of condemnātiō, which Wiktionary translates as "1. condemnation 2. verdict." condemnatio - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

    T
    he Greek NT original in both verses is κατάκριμα, katakrima, Strong's G2631, which is translated as "damnatory sentence, condemnation." G2631 - katakrima - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org). You see the same original word in Romans 8:1 -



    Quote
    Rom 8:1


    There is therefore now no condemnation G2631 to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    In the Vulgate of Romans 8:1, Jerome uses a different word:


    Quote

    1 There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.

    Nihil ergo nunc damnationis est iis qui sunt in Christo Jesu : qui non secundum carnem ambulant.

    Nonbaptized infants are not "in Christ Jesus." They are "condemned," and "damned," Biblically speaking. In English, Greek and Latin. There is no difference that I see between the English and the original languages.

    But anyway, I hold Augustine in very high regard, as I know you do. I'd like to know what he thought, not what others who came after him thought, or what others say he thought. What did St. Augustine himself say and think on the matter? That is my question. As you, I do not condemn (no pun intended) any permitted position here.



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #48 on: September 13, 2023, 10:47:07 AM »
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  • The above from St. Robert Bellarmine who distinguished St. Augustine’s view from that which came later by way of the scholastics, especially St. T. Aquinas.

    Source:

    https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5QadSSWT71abU2TKG0MJX3CqHndUk9XrMIMo5zX8bzjad7S4aZEXFHzbzUO3g_WQWA9teRfOik34_8EcbWDK_C5l8NHCUYrhhYRS9NZtyv7HCDyxpoDvSBWGhpL5AZQGre9-hDAaCtxrdBFZlzc88o8yu13BINjRUPriONOT2chpqkAeQUy2onDfYhH_x4z3vofo_QMCPcahKo_RstetmCMjiwEixcL89V-S7RKoPuzKAIiueFj1UK9gOZdaLedc9v6p0B0UXjRrOQcNtxGMn7gK1VxZ0vQ

    This "book," or rather article entitled "Infant Perdition in the Middle Ages," from the journal, Medieval Studies, is a real eye opener. Wow. It is written by a Protestant critic of the Church,  but most importantly, pages 6 - 15 are a translation of a work by St. Robert Bellarmine, and contain Bellarmine's words and thinking, directly, on the question. I will quote from Bellarmine's work embedded in the article later, but . . . really, really interesting.

    Thank you for the find, and contribution, RandomFish.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #49 on: September 13, 2023, 10:59:05 AM »
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  • If you can't open the link, I attach my downloaded pdf. You can also get it online at Google books by simply searching "Infant Perdition in the Middle Ages."

    The highlights are mine. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #50 on: September 13, 2023, 01:31:00 PM »
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  • Thanks for the PDF.  I couldn't access the links.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #51 on: September 13, 2023, 01:45:57 PM »
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  • There are some additional, relevant quotes from St. Augustine in the Bellarmine text quoted in the article - which I will look at in more detail - but St. Robert basically agrees with my assessment of St. Augustine's view:


    Quote
    The seventh objection is from the Fathers Augustine and Fulgentius. For St. Augustine writeth plainly enough that infants shall be tormented in eternal fire (Serm; de Ver. Apost. 14), and St. Fulgentius biddeth us hold most steadfastly to that same belief (De Fide ad Petum, c. 27). I answer, the holy Fathers seem to have wished to signify that the infants should be tormented in eternal fire by detention there, and not by burning. For this is the only thing which Augustine everywhere maintains as certain, that unbaptized children after death shall be in that place where everlasting fire is, together with the devil and his angels. But he plainly said that he could not define what their punishment [poena] should be, or of what quality or how great. And if perchance St. Fulgentius held otherwise, we do him no injustice if we prefer to follow St. Gregory nαzιanzene with the whole school of theologians....

    Page 13


    As I said, my main interest here is getting St. Augustine right, and doing him justice. I'm going to focus now closely on the actual quotes from him in the article.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #52 on: September 13, 2023, 01:48:49 PM »
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  • Thanks for the PDF.  I couldn't access the links.

    Yeah. I don't recall how I got the whole article. I think I did the Google search by its title and author. 

    The article is particularly good in that I wasn't able to find an English translation of the Bellarmine work elsewhere online. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #53 on: September 13, 2023, 02:05:15 PM »
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  • St. Robert Bellarmine comes down in favor of the Augustine view, which he does not read as suffering any physical pain from the "fires of hell" - see prior post. St. Robert's opinion:


    Quote
    Lastly, it remains for us to discuss the third and fourth opinion, whereof the former exempted infants from all pain, whether inward or outward,
    while the latter left them inward pain but freed them altogether from the outward. The former is probable by reason of the authority of St. Thomas, St. Bonaventura, and many other illustrious theologians; but I deem the latter the more probable by reason of the authority of the holy Fathers St. Augustine, St. Fulgentius, St. Gregory, and others ;
    , who have been followed by some even among the Schoolmen.

    I say therefore that unbaptized children will feel mental pain, since they will understand themselves to be deprived of bliss, severed from the company of their pious brethren and parents, thrust into the dungeon of hell, and destined to spend. their lives in eternal darkness.




    Page 13


    The copy is not perfect at the end there. 

    Again, I'm not seeing any discussion by St. Augustine of any pain identified for these infants, outer or inward - maybe I've missed something, or it's in some other quote in the article.  All I see St. Augustine doing is consigning these infants to a place of pain, a place of eternal flames; again, he does so for the reasons discussed, namely, only 2 eternal places, heaven, a place of bliss, and hell, a place of eternal flame (and much torment and suffering for those who commited unforgiven, actual sins).

     But there's St. Robert's opinion. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline RandomFish

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #54 on: September 13, 2023, 02:32:07 PM »
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  • Augustine, Enchiridion ad Laurentium:

    Chapter 46. It is Probable that Children are Involved in the Guilt Not Only of the First Pair, But of Their Own Immediate Parents.

    And it is said, with much appearance of probability, that infants are involved in the guilt of the sins not only of the first pair, but of their own immediate parents. For that divine judgment, I shall visit the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, certainly applies to them before they come under the new covenant by regeneration. And it was this new covenant that was prophesied of, when it was said by Ezekiel, that the sons should not bear the iniquity of the fathers, and that it should no longer be a proverb in Israel, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge. Here lies the necessity that each man should be born again, that he might be freed from the sin in which he was born. For the sins committed afterwards can be cured by penitence, as we see is the case after baptism. And therefore the new birth would not have been appointed only that the first birth was sinful, so sinful that even one who was legitimately born in wedlock says: I was shapen in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me. He did not say in iniquity, or in sin, though he might have said so correctly; but he preferred to say iniquities and sins, because in that one sin which passed upon all men, and which was so great that human nature was by it made subject to inevitable death, many sins, as I showed above, may be discriminated; and further, because there are other sins of the immediate parents, which though they have not the same effect in producing a change of nature, yet subject the children to guilt unless the divine grace and mercy interpose to rescue them.

    Chapter 92. The Resurrection of the Lost.

    But as for those who, out of the mass of perdition caused by the first man's sin, are not redeemed through the one Mediator between God and man, they too shall rise again, each with his own body, but only to be punished with the devil and his angels…


    Chapter 93. Both the First and the Second Deaths are the Consequence of Sin. Punishment is Proportioned to Guilt.

    And neither the first death, which takes place when the soul is compelled to leave the body, nor the second death, which takes place when the soul is not permitted to leave the suffering body, would have been inflicted on man had no one sinned. And, of course, the mildest punishment of all will fall upon those who have added no actual sin, to the original sin they brought with them; and as for the rest who have added such actual sins, the punishment of each will be the more tolerable in the next world, according as his iniquity has been less in this world.

    Source:

    https://archive.org/details/saureliiaugusti01augugoog/page/n5/mode/1up

    Offline trad123

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #55 on: September 13, 2023, 02:38:42 PM »
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  • Is the claim he thought infants would be tormented with the fires of hell, albeit "mildly," some form of Catholic urban myth?


    It could be ignorance about Limbo, not understanding that Limbo is within the confines of Hell, thinking rather that Limbo is outside of both Heaven and Hell.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #56 on: September 13, 2023, 02:54:19 PM »
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  • THE MYSTICAL CITY OF GOD

    VOLUME III

    Chapter XXV

    Quote
    749. To one side of hell is purgatory, where the souls of the just are purged and where they cleanse themselves, if they have not satisfied for their faults in this life, or have not departed from this earthly life entirely free from the defects incapacitating them for the beatific vision. This cavern is also large, but not so large as hell; and though there are severe punishments in purgatory, they have no connection with those of hell.

    To the other side is limbo with two different divisions: The one for the children, who die unbaptized and tainted only with original sin, without either good or bad works of their own election. The other served as a retreat for the just, who had already satisfied for their sins; for they could not enter heaven, nor enjoy the vision of God until the Redemption of man was accomplished and until Christ our Savior should open the gates of heaven closed by the sin of Adam (Ps. 23, 9). This cavern is likewise smaller than hell, and has no connection with it, nor are there in it the pains of the senses like in purgatory. For it was destined for the souls already cleansed in purgatory and implied only the absence of beatific vision or pain of privation; there also stayed all those who died in the state of grace until the death of the Redeemer. This is the place to which Christ’s soul descended with the Divinity and which we refer to in saying that He descended into hell.

    For the word “hell” may be used to signify any of the infernal regions in the depths of the earth, though commonly we apply it only to the hell of the demons and the damned. This is the most notable meaning of this word, just as “heaven” ordinarily signifies the empyrean, the habitation of the saints, where they are to dwell forever, while the damned remain forever in hell. The other parts of hell have also the more particular names of purgatory and limbo. After the final judgment heaven and hell only are to be inhabited, since purgatory shall become unnecessary and since even the infants shall be transported to another dwellingplace.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #57 on: September 13, 2023, 03:05:52 PM »
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  • THE MYSTICAL CITY OF GOD

    VOLUME III

    Chapter XXV

    since even the infants shall be transported to another dwellingplace.
    Huh?!?!

    Offline trad123

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #58 on: September 13, 2023, 03:17:53 PM »
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  • Huh?!?!



    I was wondering about that last sentence, as well.

    Infants from Limbo will live, after the last judgement, on the new earth, apparently?




    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/paul-vi-still-alive-and-in-hiding/msg562224/#msg562224


    The children without proper reason do not go to hell but to limbo, and they will live on the surface of the earth at the end of the world.



    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/baptismofdesire-com/msg272411/#msg272411


    Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics originally published in 1891

    by Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead


    [ . . . ]


    154. Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

    Those who through no fault of theirs die without Baptism, though they have never committed sin, cannot enter Heaven neither will they go to Hell. After the Last Judgment there will be no Purgatory. Where, then, will they go? God in His goodness will provide a place of rest for them, where they will not suffer and will be in a state of natural peace; but they will never see God or Heaven. God might have created us for a purely natural and material end, so that we would live forever upon the earth and be naturally happy with the good things God would give us. But then we would never have known of Heaven or God as we do now. Such happiness on earth would be nothing compared to the delights of Heaven and the presence of God; so that, now, since God has given us, through His holy revelations, a knowledge of Himself and Heaven, we would be miserable if left always upon the earth. Those, then, who die without Baptism do not know what they have lost, and are naturally happy; but we who know all they have lost for want of Baptism know how very unfortunate they are.

    Think, then, what a terrible crime it is to willfully allow anyone to die without Baptism, or to deprive a little child of life before it can be baptized! Suppose all the members of a family but one little infant have been baptized; when the Day of Judgment comes, while all the other members of a family—father, mother, and children—may go into Heaven, that little one will have to remain out; that little brother or sister will be separated from its family forever, and never, never see God or Heaven. How heartless and cruel, then, must a person be who would deprive that little infant of happiness for all eternity—just that its mother or someone else might have a little less trouble or suffering here upon earth.







    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #59 on: September 13, 2023, 03:27:03 PM »
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  • I was wondering about that last sentence, as well.

    Infants from Limbo will live, after the last judgement, on the new earth, apparently?




    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/paul-vi-still-alive-and-in-hiding/msg562224/#msg562224




    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/baptismofdesire-com/msg272411/#msg272411
    Interesting, although I'm skeptical of any book that has salvation of non-Catholics in its title.