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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 32213 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2023, 02:13:44 PM »
I think I've found a translation. It's  sermon 294, right? I suggest all who wish to discuss this further read it in full. I will certainly do so.

https://wesleyscholar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Augustine-Sermons-273-305.pdf

Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2023, 02:44:45 PM »
Here’s the second aforementioned 
resource:


1.16.21 (CSEL 60, 20f.)


https://archive.org/details/corpusscriptorum60auguuoft/page/19/mode/1up?view=theater

I will post the third shortly.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2023, 03:06:50 PM »
Here’s the second aforementioned
resource:


1.16.21 (CSEL 60, 20f.)


https://archive.org/details/corpusscriptorum60auguuoft/page/19/mode/1up?view=theater

I will post the third shortly.

Thanks. I think this is the translation of that:

Quote
Chapter 21 [XVI.]— Unbaptized Infants Damned, But Most Lightly; The Penalty of Adam's Sin, the Grace of His Body Lost.

It may therefore be correctly affirmed, that such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all. That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will not be involved in condemnation; whereas the apostle says: Judgment from one offense to condemnation, Romans 5:16 and again a little after: By the offense of one upon all persons to condemnation. Romans 5:18 When, indeed, Adam sinned by not obeying God, then his body — although it was a natural and mortal body — lost the grace whereby it used in every part of it to be obedient to the soul. Then there arose in men affections common to the brutes which are productive of shame, and which made man ashamed of his own nakedness. Genesis 3:10 Then also, by a certain disease which was conceived in men from a suddenly injected and pestilential corruption, it was brought about that they lost that stability of life in which they were created, and, by reason of the mutations which they experienced in the stages of life, issued at last in death. However many were the years they lived in their subsequent life, yet they began to die on the day when they received the law of death, because they kept verging towards old age. For that possesses not even a moment's stability, but glides away without intermission, which by constant change perceptibly advances to an end which does not produce perfection, but utter exhaustion. Thus, then, was fulfilled what God had spoken: In the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die. Genesis 2:17 As a consequence, then, of this disobedience of the flesh and this law of sin and death, whoever is born of the flesh has need of spiritual regeneration — not only that he may reach the kingdom of God, but also that he may be freed from the damnation of sin. Hence men are on the one hand born in the flesh liable to sin and death from the first Adam, and on the other hand are born again in baptism associated with the righteousness and eternal life of the second Adam; even as it is written in the book of Ecclesiasticus: Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die. Sirach 25:24 Now whether it be said of the woman or of Adam, both statements pertain to the first man; since (as we know) the woman is of the man, and the two are one flesh. Whence also it is written: And they two shall be one flesh; wherefore, the Lord says, they are no more two, but one flesh. Matthew 19:5-6

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2023, 03:18:05 PM »
Quote
But I do not say that children who die without the baptism of Christ will undergo such grievous punishment that it were better for them never to have been born, since our Lord did not say these words of any sinner you please, but only of the most base and ungodly. If we consider what He said about the Sodomites, which certainly He did not mean of them only that it will be more tolerable for one than for another in the day of judgment, 2 who can doubt that nonbaptized infants, having only original sin and no burden of personal sins, will suffer the lightest condemnation of all? I cannot define the amount and kind of their punishment, but I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there. But you, also, who contend they are, as it were, free of any condemnation, do not wish to think about the condemnation by which you punish them by estranging from the life of God and from the kingdom of God so many images of God, and by separating them from the pious parents you so eloquently urge to procreate them. They suffer these separations unjustly, if they have no sin at all; or if justly, then they have original sin.


The Fathers Of The Church A New Translation Volume 35 Saint Augustine Against Julian : Roy Joseph Deferrari : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive



I believe the above is the translation of the passage cited Contra Iulianum 5.11.44 (PL 44, 809), which I already quoted on page 1. 

This, with the replies 30 and 32, gives us 3 of the 4 passages in translation.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2023, 03:42:57 PM »
While you're answering that, it seems my first argument was based on carelessly disregarding the context.

However, I haven't exhausted the quote. Here's the relevant part:

Notice two things:


1) Augustine says the punishment has an amount and kind which he does not know. Consider now that the deprivation of the Beatific Vision is a specific kind of punishment and which has no qualifier of amount. Therefore, Augustine is not speaking of merely their being in Hell. To restate the argument: if Augustine was claiming infants are only deprived of Heaven he wouldn't have said he cannot say what amount and kind of punishment they would suffer.

2) Augustine says: I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there. Well, if Augustine held that the infants were in a state of perfect natural happiness, not suffering any positive punishment, then he would certainly say it was good for them to be born. However, he is not sure whether their punishment is of such a degree as to be better not to even exist.

Marulus,

(1) Augustine clearly believes that these infants are denied the beatific vision, and that this is a "condemnation."

(2) Beyond that, he clearly says that he doesn't know, but that it is "the lightest condemnation of all."

Do we agree on (1) and (2)?

And, remember, he says he doesn't know - beyond (1) above - what the condemnation is,  but "it is the lightest of all."

I believe St. Augustine is merely being restrained in his opinion in light of his lack of clear knowledge. Augustine held Scripture in the highest regard and would not be dogmatic about things not taught in Scripture or by the Church. By saying he would not dare say it were better for them not to be born, he is showing that restraint. Yes, he does not say they have a state of perfect natural happiness . . HE DOESN'T KNOW BEYOND (1) above,  but he wouldn't dare qualify or opine that the "penalty" was such that it were better for them not to be born. Which, I might add, were that to involve "torments" from the flames of hell, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for him to say that.

Indeed, as has been noted, the Church hasn't defined Limbo, or a state of natural happiness, to this day.


Augustine is being cautious. I'm working through the first translation, the sermon, but he shows himself to be a close reader of Scripture and and the necessary inferences from it. As he argues, Scripture gives us the right and the left, heaven and hell, and is silent beyond that, and he dissects the Scriptural passages quite lucidly. So he quite reasonably concludes that, since the infants sans baptism cannot go to heaven, then there's that only other place/option. Indeed, even those supporting a Limbo of natural happiness concede that it is not in "some other middle place," but, I believe it is recognized as being on the outer regions or borders of hell.

Love Augustine, and his manner of thinking. Very sound, and of course brilliant.