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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 26227 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2023, 01:04:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on September 11, 2023, 12:46:01 PM
    What pathetic sophistry.

    Are you pretending not to see the difference between a state of perfect natural happiness and suffering a positive punishment or are you that blind?

    Either way you should stay out of intellectual discussions.

    The fact that you still haven't grasped how the quotes you yourself provided prove you wrong even after I pointed it out is likewise beyond me.

    The only "punishment" Augustine could be said to identify was denial of the beatific vision to the infants. No one has shown him to opine that the infants suffered any other penalty of punishment. He said that these infants had the "lightest condemnation of all." Innocent III said that the infants suffered the "penalty" of deprivation of the deprivation of the beatific vision alone. A reasonable man would conclude that Augustine and Innocent III were in agreement: what would be "milder" than something that is not an imposition of punishment beyond the merely the taking away of this benefit? The "Limbo is a place of natural happiness" faction also agree that this benefit is deprived the infants. If you add an additional penalty beyond that, it would not be the "lightest condemnation of all," and St. Augustine opined that the penalty to the infants was "the lightest" or mildest.

    There is no contradiction, or incompatible theological shift, between Augustine and the "Limbo is a natural place of happiness" advocates. 

    This fact may get your goat, and fire up claims of "pathetic sophistry" - as a fact that is "beyond" you - but the fact remains, whether you're inability to refute it gets you worked up, or not.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #16 on: September 11, 2023, 01:11:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 11, 2023, 01:04:51 PM

    The only "punishment" Augustine could be said to identify was denial of the beatific vision to the infants. No one has shown him to opine that the infants suffered any other penalty of punishment. He said that these infants had the "lightest condemnation of all." Innocent III said that the infants suffered the "penalty" of deprivation of the deprivation of the beatific vision alone. A reasonable man would conclude that Augustine and Innocent III were in agreement: what would be "milder" than something that is not an imposition of punishment beyond the merely the taking away of this benefit? The "Limbo is a place of natural happiness" faction also agree that this benefit is deprived the infants. If you add an additional penalty beyond that, it would not be the "lightest condemnation of all," and St. Augustine opined that the penalty to the infants was "the lightest" or mildest.

    There is no contradiction, or incompatible theological shift, between Augustine and the "Limbo is a natural place of happiness" advocates.

    This fact may get your goat, and fire up claims of "pathetic sophistry" - as a fact that is "beyond" you - but the fact remains, whether you're inability to refute it gets you worked up, or not.
    Please excuse my getting worked up. Thank you for staying polite.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #17 on: September 11, 2023, 01:11:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on September 11, 2023, 12:49:53 PM
    Let me try to help you see once more.

    How does Augustine's position differ from those he is addressing?

    That is easy. They said the infants were "free of any condemnation." St. Augustine says they are wrong: the infants indeed suffered condemnation - denial of the beatific vision.

    If you doubt that these infants suffered condemnation, I refer you again to my earlier citation of Romans 5:18 and the Council of Trent. And I remind you that St. Augustine said the infants "suffer the lightest condemnation of all." 

    Surely you can see that there is a difference between a position of "free from condemnation" and condemnation, but "the lightest" of all, no? One position says condemned, the other not. The difference is quite clear.  
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #18 on: September 11, 2023, 01:13:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on September 11, 2023, 01:11:20 PM
    Please excuse my getting worked up. Thank you for staying polite.

    No problem. It is quite easy to get worked up; I've done it often. Let us continue to discuss politely and as dispassionately as possible - in pursuit of truth. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #19 on: September 11, 2023, 01:16:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 11, 2023, 01:11:36 PM
    That is easy. They said the infants were "free of any condemnation." St. Augustine says they are wrong: the infants indeed suffered condemnation - denial of the beatific vision.

    If you doubt that these infants suffered condemnation, I refer you again to my earlier citation of Romans 5:18 and the Council of Trent. And I remind you that St. Augustine said the infants "suffer the lightest condemnation of all."

    Surely you can see that there is a difference between a position of "free from condemnation" and condemnation, but "the lightest" of all, no? One position says condemned, the other not. The difference is quite clear. 
    The way you stated it makes it sound as though his opponents believed the infants went to heaven, that they are not denied the Beatific Vision. However, Augustine states that they themselves admit that the infants are deprived of the Beatific Vision.

    But you, also, who contend they are, as it were, free of any condemnation, do not wish to think about the condemnation by which you punish them by estranging from the life of God and from the kingdom of God.

    So, if they are in agreement that the infants do not go to Heaven, but to Hell, what is the difference in their positions?

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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #20 on: September 11, 2023, 01:28:01 PM »
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    • I opened the link you cited and I see now that he's debating Pelagians. I made a fool of myself for lack of context it seems... 

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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #21 on: September 11, 2023, 01:28:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on September 11, 2023, 01:16:24 PM
    The way you stated it makes it sound as though his opponents believed the infants went to heaven, that they are not denied the Beatific Vision. However, Augustine states that they themselves admit that the infants are deprived of the Beatific Vision.

    But you, also, who contend they are, as it were, free of any condemnation, do not wish to think about the condemnation by which you punish them by estranging from the life of God and from the kingdom of God.

    So, if they are in agreement that the infants do not go to Heaven, but to Hell, what is the difference in their positions?

    No. Augustine is exposing their position of "free from condemnation" as being clearly unsound, since in fact their position entails a clear condemnation: denial of the beatific vision. They "do not wish to think about the condemnation," but that is what their position involves - the condemnation of deprivation of the beatific vision. They are not admitting it or saying it; if they were, they'd be "thinking about it," clearly. You can't say or admit something without thinking about it. 

    The upshot of their position is a condemnation that they not only do not verbalize, but which they "don't wish to think about." Yet it is inherent in their position, nonetheless. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #22 on: September 11, 2023, 01:30:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on September 11, 2023, 01:28:01 PM
    I opened the link you cited and I see now that he's debating Pelagians. I made a fool of myself for lack of context it seems...

    Well . . . that's something I've done too. Lol 

    Actually,  you just made me a bit of a fool, as I could have merely pointed out the context, as you did, and saved myself some trouble.     :laugh1:
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #23 on: September 11, 2023, 01:31:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 11, 2023, 01:28:41 PM
    No. Augustine is exposing their position of "free from condemnation" as being clearly unsound, since in fact their position entails a clear condemnation: denial of the beatific vision. They "do not wish to think about the condemnation," but that is what their position involves - the condemnation of deprivation of the beatific vision. They are not admitting it or saying it; if they were, they'd be "thinking about it," clearly. You can't say or admit something without thinking about it.

    The upshot of their position is a condemnation that they not only do not verbalize, but which they "don't wish to think about." Yet it is inherent in their position, nonetheless.
    I'm confused now. Augustine is refuting Pelagianism here, right? What part of the Pelagian position entails the deprivation of Heaven for infants without original sin?
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #24 on: September 11, 2023, 01:40:51 PM »
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    • While you're answering that, it seems my first argument was based on carelessly disregarding the context.

    However, I haven't exhausted the quote. Here's the relevant part:


    Quote
    who can doubt that nonbaptized infants, having only original sin and no burden of personal sins, will suffer the lightest condemnation of all? I cannot define the amount and kind of their punishment, but I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there.
    Notice two things:


    1) Augustine says the punishment has an amount and kind which he does not know. Consider now that the deprivation of the Beatific Vision is a specific kind of punishment and which has no qualifier of amount. Therefore, Augustine is not speaking of merely their being in Hell. To restate the argument: if Augustine was claiming infants are only deprived of Heaven he wouldn't have said he cannot say what amount and kind of punishment they would suffer.

    2) Augustine says: I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there. Well, if Augustine held that the infants were in a state of perfect natural happiness, not suffering any positive punishment, then he would certainly say it was good for them to be born. However, he is not sure whether their punishment is of such a degree as to be better not to even exist.
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    Offline RandomFish

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #25 on: September 11, 2023, 01:40:59 PM »
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    • Saint Augustine’s view on the divine consignment of unbaptized infants to the positive sufferings of the damned in hell, contra S. Aquinas, and in addition to the lack of the Beatific Vision, is found in the following resources:

    De pecc. mer. 1.16.21 (CSEL 60, 20f.) ; Sermo 294.3, Patrologia cursus completa, series latina (PL), J.P. MIGNE (ed.), 38, 1337; Contra Iulianum 5.11.44 (PL 44, 809).

    For your convenience:

    https://archive.org/details/sanctiaureliiau05augugoog/page/n659/mode/1up

    Also see attachment.

    I don’t have time to translate myself, but you can do so at your convenience using Google Translate. It’s enough to be intelligible.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #26 on: September 11, 2023, 01:49:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: RandomFish on September 11, 2023, 01:40:59 PM
    Saint Augustine’s view on the divine consignment of unbaptized infants to the positive sufferings of the damned in hell, contra S. Aquinas, and in addition to the lack of the Beatific Vision, is found in the following resources:

    De pecc. mer. 1.16.21 (CSEL 60, 20f.) ; Sermo 294.3, Patrologia cursus completa, series latina (PL), J.P. MIGNE (ed.), 38, 1337; Contra Iulianum 5.11.44 (PL 44, 809).

    For your convenience:

    https://archive.org/details/sanctiaureliiau05augugoog/page/n659/mode/1up

    Also see attachment.

    I don’t have time to translate myself, but you can do so at your convenience using Google Translate. It’s enough to be intelligible.

    Thank you.  There you have it, DR.  St. Augustine clearly states that there are only two places in eternity, the Kingdom of Heaven and "eternal fire", and that infants who die without Baptism go into the eternal fire.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #27 on: September 11, 2023, 01:51:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: RandomFish on September 11, 2023, 01:40:59 PM
    Saint Augustine’s view on the divine consignment of unbaptized infants to the positive sufferings of the damned in hell, contra S. Aquinas, and in addition to the lack of the Beatific Vision, is found in the following resources:

    De pecc. mer. 1.16.21 (CSEL 60, 20f.) ; Sermo 294.3, Patrologia cursus completa, series latina (PL), J.P. MIGNE (ed.), 38, 1337; Contra Iulianum 5.11.44 (PL 44, 809).

    For your convenience:

    https://archive.org/details/sanctiaureliiau05augugoog/page/n659/mode/1up

    Also see attachment.

    I don’t have time to translate myself, but you can do so at your convenience using Google Translate. It’s enough to be intelligible.
    Welcome! Thank you for the quote. Seems to settle the matter.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #28 on: September 11, 2023, 01:52:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: RandomFish on September 11, 2023, 01:40:59 PM
    Saint Augustine’s view on the divine consignment of unbaptized infants to the positive sufferings of the damned in hell, contra S. Aquinas, and in addition to the lack of the Beatific Vision, is found in the following resources:

    De pecc. mer. 1.16.21 (CSEL 60, 20f.) ; Sermo 294.3, Patrologia cursus completa, series latina (PL), J.P. MIGNE (ed.), 38, 1337; Contra Iulianum 5.11.44 (PL 44, 809).

    For your convenience:

    https://archive.org/details/sanctiaureliiau05augugoog/page/n659/mode/1up

    Also see attachment.

    I don’t have time to translate myself, but you can do so at your convenience using Google Translate. It’s enough to be intelligible.

    Ok. That will take some work to get a translation, but thanks. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #29 on: September 11, 2023, 01:55:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 11, 2023, 01:49:34 PM
    Thank you.  There you have it, DR.  St. Augustine clearly states that there are only two places in eternity, the Kingdom of Heaven and "eternal fire", and that infants who die without Baptism go into the eternal fire.
    Not only that, but he says this Certe habere ?non? vitam aeternam, qui non baptizatur?

    It's unfortunate that a few letters from the beginning of each row is missing. What word could be inferred besides non?

    I assume he would have said non habere instad of habere non so I think it is something else.

    It seems as if you can barely see a footnote at the beginning of the row. And the footnote says non potest so the general sense is clear.

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