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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 32215 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2023, 06:54:02 AM »
Quote from: EWPJ on September 10, 2023, 04:47:12 PM
Abelard was also a heretic on several issues.  It's my understanding that Original Sin is an actual sin, not just a condition or status.  I think that idea is where the severity of the St. Augustine view springs forth.

Nah, Abelard was railroaded.  He was no heretic.  Abelard basically invented the scholastic method and some, including unfortunately St. Bernard, wrongly considered it impious.  I wrote a long post about it.  His work "Sic ad non." basically pioneered the method of considering and then refuting counter arguments that was made famous by St. Thomas.  This was considered to be impiety at the time.  Abelard did make some enemies due to his arrogance, so that didn't help his case.

But regardless of what you say about Abelard, St. Thomas not only fully embraced Abelard's opinion but took it to the next level by teaching that infants who die without Baptism experience perfect natural happiness.  Now, St. Thomas is not the Magisterium, and you're entitled to hold to the Augustinian opinion, but you'd be in the minority, and on the same side as the Jansenists.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2023, 06:56:54 AM »
Not sure what the big problem is here.  I've repeatedly stated that you're entitled to side with the Jansenists and cling to the opinion of St. Augustine.  I agree with St. Thomas (and St. Gregory nαzιanzen) rather than with Innocent III, except that there is in fact a sense in which the loss of the Beatific Vision is a "punishment", a relative sense, where it's not having something that one could have had. 

One very apt analogy might be like winning the huge multi-million dollar lottery and than losing the ticket.  If I knew that I had the winning ticket but then lost it, that would cause me a tremendous amount of grief.  But not winning the lottery if you never bought a ticket or buying a $1 ticket that was a non-winner doesn't have the same effect.  St. Thomas likens their state to an individual who didn't win the lottery because he didn't buy a ticket vs. the pain of loss experienced by the individual who had the winning ticket but lost it, where St. Augustine's view is more along the lines of the guy who had a non-winning ticket and was upset over not winning the lottery.  Meanwhile, those who were baptized but then lost their souls experience the pain of loss analogous to the guy who had the winning ticket but then lost it.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2023, 07:15:24 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on September 11, 2023, 06:47:45 AM
You're not a very clear thinker.  We're distinguishing between the non-suffering (in fact, perfect happiness state) of Limbo vs. the suffering state.  As the EENS definitions tell us, each suffers in proportion to their sins.  What was under dispute was whether Original Sin alone led to suffering in Hell period, and not the degree of suffering.  St. Augustine held that their suffering was mild, but that they suffered nevertheless, i.e. experienced a positive punishment.  St. Thomas stated that not only do they not suffer, but they experience perfect natural happiness.  It's all laid out quite clearly in the CE article.  We're not arguing about the degree of their suffering but about whether they suffer at all.

No, you're not a very clear thinker. You argue that there is a radical change in theological opinion and consensus, thereby invalidating the consensus of theologians,  showing how it can be false. Ergo, the consensus on baptism of desire can be wrong, and you right.

Your argument is, as Quo said, built on sand. There is no radical change in theological consensus on the fate of unbaptized infants. St. Augustine viewed the deprivation of the beatific vision as a "punishment" due to original sin. Those who place infants in Limbo also view them as being deprived of the beatific vision, as Augustine did. Augustine did not anywhere, to my knowledge, indicate that these unbaptized infants suffered anything beyond the same "penalty" as those who call the place these infants go to, "Limbo" - i.e., the sole penalty of deprivation of the beatific vision. 

There is simply no change in theological consensus, but a change in mere terminology. Or so it appears. No one, certainly not you, has shown otherwise. I say the claim that there has been a "radical change" in the opinions of theologians about these unbaptized infants is belied by the actual facts: the actually expressed opinion of St. Augustine, the "opinion" of Innocent III.

You can say Augustine described the deprivation of the beatific vision to these infants as "suffering," while others didn't use that term. That is merely a semantic distinction devoid of the theological consequence you want to lay upon it, a difference in use of terms. It is not a radical theological difference showing a contradiction in position between St. Augustine and St. Thomas and those who don't describe the infants as "suffering." The infants, for both, are under the "penalty" of deprivation of the beatific vision, nothing more.

No one has shown us that St. Augustine believed these infants received a penalty beyond loss of the beatific vision, or that they endured a "suffering" that was different than that. Perhaps someone will, but you haven't, and neither has anyone else.
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Offline Marulus Fidelis

Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2023, 12:46:01 PM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on September 11, 2023, 07:15:24 AM

You can say Augustine described the deprivation of the beatific vision to these infants as "suffering," while others didn't use that term. That is merely a semantic distinction devoid of the theological consequence you want to lay upon it, a difference in use of terms. It is not a radical theological difference showing a contradiction in position between St. Augustine and St. Thomas and those who don't describe the infants as "suffering." The infants, for both, are under the "penalty" of deprivation of the beatific vision, nothing more.
What pathetic sophistry.

Are you pretending not to see the difference between a state of perfect natural happiness and suffering a positive punishment or are you that blind?

Either way you should stay out of intellectual discussions.

The fact that you still haven't grasped how the quotes you yourself provided prove you wrong even after I pointed it out is likewise beyond me.
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Offline Marulus Fidelis

Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2023, 12:49:53 PM »
Let me try to help you see once more.

How does Augustine's position differ from those he is addressing?
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